2000 1c Different "Extra Beard?"

ddorpm · Advanced Member

Recently a 2000 1c exhibiting "Extra Beard" was reported and published in various media press outlets.

I came across this 2000 Lincoln cent which I thought was interesting looking. I will point out that the coin also exhibits clash remnants that can be seen directly due south of the earlobe. But, the outline of that clash remnant are straight lines (as they should be) with its corresponding to that particular field within the Memorial bay on the reverse.

However, in contrast, the other raised remnants pointed out by the white arrows that are much further down the neck are curving in nature and appear to flow as partial beard strands.

Is this another "Extra Beard?" Any thoughts?

This photo is with the angle of the lighting slightly different.

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

Billy - From your picture I would say "yes" without hesitation. Oddly enough the offset angle between the secondary to primary images appears to be very similar to 2000P-1DO-001 (your 2000, CDDO-001).

While some may thing that this is coincidental (the same angle), I have learned that the single squeeze hubbing may be the factor doing this. It has shown up repetedly (the same angle, the same pattern) in the study of wavy steps and trails.

Very interesting and a nice find.

BJ Neff

Gabe · Senior Member

Yeah.. The coin does indeed look like another doubled beared. I need to start keeping an eye out for these.

Dick · Expert Member

Gabe, I agree, and if you will check the hair on the back of the head, low, it is also doubled.
Dick.

ddorpm · Advanced Member

BJ:

I'm having reservations about these so called "Extra Beard" varieties. It appears to me these could just be heavy clash remnants. The one I presented above as I pointed out has clash remnants directly below the earlobe and in this particular case would be a multiple clash type.

I know of another 2000 cent that is different from the one shown above and is different from the published one and it too has clash remnants. It was found in the same BU rolls as the one published in NN and CONECA web site.

And, this morning I just came across a 2002 cent with the same thing going on in the neck area and it too has heavy die clash remnants.

Though I have not performed any overlays yet, but I think what we may be seeing could actually just be part of the statue outline with the edge of the bay that ends up giving the curving that we see lower down on the neck area.

The 2000 cent that is listed as WDDO-001 and CONECA DDO-001/1-O-VIII and VCR#3/DDO#1 I am going to temporarily place on hold for my "C" files and I believe re-evaluation of these "Extra Beard" types is very much needed by all parties concerned.

eagames · Expert Member

I also found a few while looking for these.
Some of them had clash and several of the lines from the beard that are part of the clash (these are more straight not like the curved ones on the DDOs). I also found a few that have curved lines from the beard but only 2 like lower pair on the DDOs.

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

Billy - I can see your concern with the possibilities that this could be a die clash. I will also do some overlay work on the die that I have and see if there is any possible fit.

The only problems that I see that would not make this a die clash is the curvature of the lines, which seem to be mare pronounced on the die that you found. There is also the spacing between the lines which does not appear to fit the spacing between the columns, however, all things are possible and at times deceiving. That is why I'll do the overlays. Either way it should prove interesting.

There is also one more point to bring to light and that is the inordinate amount of obverse to reverse doubled dies encountered which have bee caused by the single squeeze hubbing. Is this the obverse die's counterpart to the extra column?

BJ

eagames · Expert Member

BJ,

Nice mystery with these!

It seems like they could be:

DDOs
Clashes
Beard trails

Whatever they are I think this might be yet another different 2000-P extra beard. I don't see a strong clash and looking close the lines are not straight. The 3 strongest extra lines show in the photo. Also the coin has a slight grain in the plating. I found 2 of these with the same markers so it's not only in the plating.

Here's a 2000-P clash, it has several straight lines in the beard that are part of the clash.

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

I had thought of "trails" early on, even before I had the die in hand, however, once under the scope I dismissed that notion. The elements that create a trail were just not present. It is a good mystery though and maybe some overlay work will tell the story.

BJ

ddorpm · Advanced Member

Here's two photos of the 2000 1c "Extra Beard" with red arrows pointing to what I believe are die clash remnants.

Bottom is the exact same photo but now with a superimposed reverse overlay that was flip-flopped and inverted which simulates a clashed die.

The clash outline design of the statue matches between the curving remnants we see in the top photo without an overlay.

I see this so-called "Extra Beard" as nothing more than a result of a misaligned heavy die clash.

I have delisted in my "C" files.

Bob P · Site Admin

Billy,
I had thought of that same area before I listed it for coppercoins. Although I could make a few of the anomalies line up with the statue's legs, chair, etc...I could not account for all of the areas of concern, particularly the one immediately below the ear lobe and the 5th one down as well as the one furthest away (which may not be anything). I also couldn't understand why a clash would form at that particular angle. I had a significantly better match with other remnants of the beard to the southeast at about a 30 degree tilt.
Although I see where your decision to de-list it from your C-Files may be warranted based on what you have shown, I believe a little more research might be required before calling it a no-go all together. There seems to be more to this than meets the eye. If I come up with anything substantial on my subsequent re-analysis, I will let you know and we can see if it significantly changes our minds. Sound like a winner??

ddorpm · Advanced Member

Bob,

I not just basing my decision on this overlay alone. The other one I presented at the top of this post -- it is a die clash as well. The difference is it is multiple clashed very close.

Additionally, I talked with another collector who has solid BU OBW rolls of 2000 cents and he told me in those rolls he is finding many of the published so-called "extra beard" and at the same time is also finding in those same rolls two other different "extra beard" ones which also exhibits very heavy die clashing on them as well.

Plus, this morning, as I said in an earlier post, I came across a 2002 cent showing the same thing on its lower neck that we see on these so-called "extra beards" and it is also heavy clashed.

Now, putting all these together, along with the overlay, and then connecting-the-dots ... I simply see this as a die clash.

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

Just finished doing some overlays and yes, I can see where certain elements do fit. One concern that I do have is the sixth column; if the left side shows as a clash, why wouldn't the right side? Actually, the right side should show stronger since it is closer to the center of the clash. Also, the clash would involve a MAD that seems a bit out of the normal allowed by the MINT.

I wish that i could be a bit more positive on your die clash theory, but for the present, I do believe it to be a doubled die. Then again, we could both be off base and it could be something we have not encountered before. All we have to do is look at wavy steps and/or trails for an example of what the single squeeze system can do.

BJ

ddorpm · Advanced Member

"Also, the clash would involve a MAD that seems a bit out of the normal allowed by the MINT."

I've seen much wider MAD clashes that what one sees on this coin.

You guys should do as you feel appropriate for your respective filing systems.

As for me and my "C" files -- I've seen all I need to see.

Dick · Expert Member

I hope I don't offend, but the overlay, (to me) seems to be too high. The ones I have seen havr the top section of the bay. or column about an inch or less BELOW the earlobe. Am I cinfusing the issue? I can post examples.

Dick