what would you grade these has?

[eagames]

Good learning, so we are just looking at cleaned and erroded out die clash.

This reminds me of another type of die clash that always puzzled me.

On Flying Eagle cents there are a few varieties where the die clash is from the wrong denomination. I'm thinking of FS-003 where the cent is clashed with a 50 cent or FS-005 where the cent is clashed with a quarter or even FS-004 where the cent is clashed with a $20 gold double eagle.

That makes me wonder 2 things:

Why was a cent die ever paired with a different denomination die and how crazy to see it with a double eagle what were they doing?

Does this mean mule coins could exist from those crazy die pairings. I never heard of muled Flying Eagle cents do they exist?

[Dick]

BJ, I saw what you were looking at, after you said what it was. I was looking for something else, and, thia is the firsr occasion of my seeing a clash on the reverse!
Gentlemen, et al, I apprreciate the explanations, and actually understand what you are talking about! I suspected something like that had to happen, to "move" the main device, (cameo) to another "apparent position". It doesn't accually move, obviously, but the impress that is left, creates the "look" that it had.Not when the planchet is "locked in place, by tjhree dies, at the moment of impact!
I have a new one for you: I have a 1985-P with what appears to be clouds in the 7th, and 8th bays. After turning up-side down, the coin, It was seen to be the "nose, lips, and chin! I will provide a photo, when possible. The position, and rotation does not seem correct for a "clash, rather the trapping in the chamber, of a second "coin". Any guesses as to what it is? There are MANY brush marks present in all areas involved. Dick

[Bob P]

Dick,
Some of the die clashes can be quite difficult to properly determine. A good example is on 1972D cents where I can see the TY of LIBERTY clashed into the second memorial bay. Another clashed die shows just the Y.
I do like your analogy of the 'clouds' in the 8th bay of your 85P cent. You obviously pinpointed the clashed areas of the obverse that you were seeing there. Some rationale for the positioning being wrong is that the clash actually loosened the dies, or that the dies were not properly aligned in the first place. I have seen many examples where the clashes were not exactly inverted and where they 'should' be. I am not aware of a lot of clashes for 1985, so I am interested in seeing a pic of the clashed area to maybe be able to shed more light on it.

[Dick]

Mike put up a shot of a 1934, yesterday that shows what I was talking about, Notice the base, up to the back of the head. The "impression", is exactly what I referred to. Does this correspond to what you were saying, Coop? Dick

[Dick]

Gentlemen, check this out.
Looking at it, the nose is on the lower left, bottom. The mouth, is on the right, same bay, and the chin is up, and to the right, in the next bay. Looks like it is rotated, ccw, from the normal upright position, in baye 6, and 7. Not the best description, but I'm a "newby, OK"! I don't think it is a clashed die. Maybe a 'Trapped coin?
Dick
I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE "SLOT" SHAPED PHOTO.

[Steven]

Dick,
Is this the impression you were speaking of earlier in this thread. Had a little time to look for one and play with photo shop.
Steven

[Dick]

yes, it looks very much like what I wanted to convey. Here is my next question: I ran into it while looking for one like your image. DICK iT IS NOT A CLASHED DIE, or is it? It involves the 6th, and 7th bays. If you could rotate it, so that ABE WAS HEAD DOWNWARDS, IT WOULD SHOW PRETTY WELL LIKE THE REAL VIEW. Please overlook the caps! I have to see the keys, and can't see the text being printed, so it comes out weird, at times! I forgot to mention, that is a nice overlay. I want to learn that, too, one of these daye! Dick

[Steven]

Appears to me to be a die clash that would be commonly found in the bays.
Steven

[Dick]

Bob, if you check the last image I posted, it will give good view. It is up-side down, but the "profile" is clear. I hope you can do something with it. Thanks,
Dick

[Dick]

Steven, I didn't know they were so common! I had NEVER seen one, on the reverse of any coin. I have a nice one on the OBV. This excludes my clashed dies fro,m Mexico. I plan to post them, later. I still have to figure out the 720x240 size of the photo. I would prefer 300x300. Oh well, all part of learning! Dick

[coop]

Steven: The coment about just being erroded dies is partly correct. The eroded part fits in with the covering over of a die clash. Makes kind of a ghost affect of the obverse bust outline on the reverse of both wheat and memorial. But in the case of BJ's coin you can actually see the die clash. That happened after the two dies clashed and before the cleaning to remove the marks with a brush or what ever means they had to clear the marks. So clashed die mark and errosion is to two different things. Kind of like the question: Are clashed dies and a die clash the same? The answer would be no, as the die clash would be the motion of the two dies closing together, thedie clash would be the result of the two dies closing with no planchet. So two errosion/wear is the result to cover a die clash and a clashed die is the mark on the dies on each other. Hope this is clear.

Something to help see where the marks of the outline would be seen on a Memorial Cent. Take a look at the images below and see the position each die would be in and the result to the outlining area affected.


Compare the clashed areas with the images above and see the different between the ghost image (Very common on later die states) and the die clash marks. (Rarer because of the time before they are detected and till they are actually removed.


I save educational pieces, so I can use them for discussions like this. Always nice to have something to help explain.

[eagames]

Still wondering how they managed to get die clash from other denominations on Flying Eagle cents?

I'm envisioning that mint workers were playing to make mules (coins carrying different denominations on their backs) but I've never heard those exist for Flying Eagles but die clashes from other denominations on Flying Eagle cents are well known.

Any theories?

[coop]

Unless a mint worker was changing dies and had an anvil larger denomination on the machine, and had just replaced the Hammer Flying Eagle Cent on top. Forgetting to change the lower die and had a die clash happen cause no coin was in the collar. That is the only way I could think of that happening. I guess we'll never know for sure as that happened before all of our times. Even yours Dick.

[Dick]

TOUCHE! Dickl

[Dick]

Coop, your overlays tell me that the die was rotated, CCW, almost 180 degrees, apparently. At least, that is the impression I get, from looking at them.That precisely is the reason I want to make overlays, and/or transparancies. Dick