what would you grade these has?

Dick · Expert Member

Steven, I think Coop will concur with this. The "eroded die(s)", are synonomous with the Die Deterioration Doubling. It shows a "dies aging", and the wear from abraision, polishing, and just plain old wear and tear among other things. The cracks are the fore-runners of the actual break-down of the die into fragments, and/or pieces, thru metal fatigue. Normally caused by use in coinage making. It can be also caused by improper annealing of the die, or, as in the case of the 1943 cent, the planchet hardness. Hope I didn't go too far wrong, and confuse some one!
Dick

coop · Expert Member

Dick: I find the Proof coins make the best overlays of the devices of the wheat and Memorial Cents. They have the strongness of the outlines of the devices that can be seen clearer and with fields that can hide and let the devices show through better.
The positioning to make an overlay of the die clashes are not only rotated 180 degrees, but also flip horizontally. This places the idea of how the dies would appear making contact with the outlines on the fields.
Die clashes are also to blame for cracked dies. If you not the classic BIE position on liberty is where the curve of the wheat stalk is. Causing a crack/chip/break progression in these areas. This happens a all over the die, but a crack/chip/break is the not the end of the die. They are litterly used in the 40s-60-s till the die actually died. The removing of die clashes thins the material the die in the fields and after several of these cleanings, the die wears down and leaves the ghost images seen in Steven's image. Wear is the same over a die, except where wear is created by the cleaning to cover die clashes. All part of a die's life.

Dick · Expert Member

Coop, that is exactly what I am after. I have proofs in both types, and in several denominations, (for the same purpose). Correct me if I am wrong, but one of the "overlay photos" you showed, has the overlay rotated 180 degrees, but horizontally.
Also noth that my example, ( if it may be called that) shows about 45 degrees rotation, CCW. This I determined from making prints of both of your photos, and, then compared with the coin under the scope. It is a great world we live in, when we can find all the "boo-boo's" the mint makes, (in spite of what they claim!)! Dick

coop · Expert Member

Yes the obverse/reverse should be 180 degrees in different directions and the image on one side is flipped horizontally to show what contact points would be like when making contact with each other. If the image wasn't flipped horizontally, Lincoln would be facing West instead of East. But the back of the neck is easy to find on die clashes, so that must be how they would be setup if a die clash happened.

Dick · Expert Member

Coop, I taped a couple cents so as to act as a hinge, and then began to change the orientation, (with my clash), and finally found that there is no rotation. I had to remember that I am looking at the die CLASH, and not the DIE. It is confusing, but it comes out right! A mirror would help, orient oneself. Meantime, back to the task! Many thanks for your help. I value it very highly.
Dick