Wavy steps, trails and lines

[wavysteps2003]

While in the chat room the other night, a possible cause came to light on just how wavy steps and trails could be made. The idea of kinetic energy was brought into the equation.

Basically, the more pressure applied to a material, in this case a steel rod, the more heat that will be generated by the compression or movement of the steel's molecules; the higher the compression, the higher the heat. One would think that this rise in temperature would create a more pliable steel, however, this is not the case, for as the pressure increases, steel is moved towards a more crystaline or rigid state. This fact tends to rule out metal flow due to heat while making a die. Also, I think that the discussions were refering to this cause, lines appearing in this case on tokens, happening with the strike, which again would rule out this as a cause, for both wavy steps and trails appear to happen during the die making process.

Thanks for the thoughts though and while I do believe that heat does play some part in making wavy steps and trails, I don't believe that heat is the cause in the way described in the discussions..

WAVYSTEPS 2003 aka BJ Neff

[Earwig]

Yes but isnt that after i cools while hot the molecules expand and are soft. And we are not dealing with steel as the product but the die. The plancets are non ferous metal which flows without warning. (doesnt turn red just starts moving) Plus you are dealing with two metals the planchet and the plating material. There may be a possibility of 1 metel expanding more then the other. This is part of the the whole thing about heat treating. But then again maybe the anomalies are coming from heat treatment of the dies itself because i do know that they are heated red hot and then slowly cooled ini 1 of many dif ways

[eagames]

Thinking out load:

Assuming other modern single squeezed DDOs are not the same thing and not mixing the waves with tails the big clues about waves seem to me to be:

Waves happen on reverses not obverses.

Waves are in the top steps and only go lower if severe.

Waves go vertical not horizontal.

Waves are stronger in the center than outer steps.

Waves started in the single squeeze years.

These clues need to point to something but what?????

[ldarrellc]

maybe the plp that made the dies there hands wasnt so steady when making them? maybe they was drunk

[Earwig]

Just got off the phone with the guy who did that token job that had trails on the rev of the tokens he said if he shut the press down for 10 min each hr he didnt get trails. When kinetic energy was brought up he said that the dies got so hot that it made the non ferousmetal malible. And the trails were only on the side of the die that the token laid in for a second before they ejected into the hopper. So my thought would be the top die retracted the token sat in the bottom die until it was ejected maybe that cooled the top enough not to move the metal. In my personal opinion I believe there is more then 1 factor involved and this might just be a part. Im not sure how they heat treat and cool the dies but according to the fellow who ran this job there could be a partial explination there if they jig the die pairs on a rack and coll with outside a fanning instead of cooling in sand. But who knows but it would be nice to find out what is causing this Also he said the trails always point toward the bottom die and were consistantly always the same direction

Eric

[Dick]

I wonder if we could get Ken Potter in on theis discussion. He worked in the mint for several years, as I understand, and might have a clue. It would be nice to one day say "this is what causes trails", period! BJ, you seem to have a close contact with him, or so it seems. Maybe he will consider it. I know he is a VERY busy guy!
Dick

[ldarrellc]

I do believe that wavysteps and Ken Potter have been discussing the situation. If I am not mistaken.

[Earwig]

just did a bit of research on Metallurgy and found out that what you say about steel is true and is a contributing fator on die fatigue or cracking at the most stressed spots on the die. The kinetic enery transfered to a piece of steel being struck will cause hardenening and immiediate start of corroding of the struck part so parts are ejected into oil to prevent this on cooling. The striking of non ferrous metel produces a malible and plyable material until cooling then after cooling instead of rusting it will harden the skin or scale of the outter sufaces up to 10 percent harder then the material but the corroding will not take place. So in that i would say limited surface flow is a possible piece of this puzzle, I pesonally think that there are 3 to 5 different things going on here to make wavysteps including die fatigue, possible heat treat variation of the dies, and even possible metal compisition of the planchet issues. Thes are just thoughts but all are poossible contributors. I wouldnt mind meeting up with Ken sometime to discuss these at a local coin show bein i live within 10 mile of him. Im intrigued with what is causing this anomally and active discussion on the topic may shed new light into what is happening. The funny thing is i havenever found a wavy step but really just started looking in the last month or so. Im gunna try and get 1 of the token i talked about to see if there are any similar traits. Also i would like to know what kind of presses the mint uses and what materials the dies are being made from now because that in itself could also contribute. The new alloy tool steels availible now all have dif traits but massivelly incease die life but they all must be handled in diff ways during machining and heat treating. Tis may also be the reason we are now seeing doubled dies again. I dont have figure but the rockwell rating on new tool steel can be triple of what was availible in 1985. Just thought i would throw that into the fire to mul over

Eric

Eric

[wavysteps2003]

Hello Earwig - Assuming that trails and wavy steps are the same anomaly, which I am 99.99 % sure that they are, I must make some corrections to the statements that you have made.

Trails appear on both the obverse and reverse.

Trails appear both on the horizontal plane and the vertical plane and various angles between these two planes.

The majority of trails do appear in the center of the die, however, the strength in a particular area can vary due to the tilt of the die to the hub.

I can understand the heat generated from the striking process, which may, on an outside chance, be enough to affect a planchet, however consider this. I have found three Lincoln cent reverse dies, from 1994, 1998 and 1999, that show the exact same pattern of trails / wavysteps, with the only difference being in the intensity of the actual lines. I have also another pair of reverse Lincoln cent dies, from 1998 and 2000, that show the same exactness, but are different (the first three are in a southwest direction, the second two are in a southeast direction) in pattern.

Also consider this; If the cause was related to just the striking action, why would the lines decrease in intensity or fade as the die ages? We know that the striking action does detriorate the die, which does cause die detrioration lines, which increase in intensity as the die ages, however, these lines are radial and not parrallel to each other as wavy steps / trails.

I have talked to Ken Potter quite often on this subject and although we agree on most of what is going on, there are certain points that we do not exactly see eye to eye on. I do hope to convience him one of these days. I have also talked with John Wexler, James Wiles, Mike Diamond and a few other leading experts concerning wavy steps / trails and the possible causes and we all do agree that this mystery needs an answer.

In the next few weeks, I will be devoting most of my time to examining each of the 400 + different wavy step / trails dies that I have, in hopes that I see something that I may have missed before. Also, this will help to solidify the theory that is in my mind how these anomalies are made, which I will publish in ERRORSCOPE at the end of the third article that I did concerning wavy steps / trails. When that issue is in circulation, I will post that theory here in this forum.

Lastly, I want to thank you for the suggestions / ideas that you put forth. It does help me to think a bit harder than I normally do, LOL. As I said before, all thoughts on these two anomalies are welcomed.

WAVYSTEPS2003 aka BJ Neff

[Dick]

BJ, I still believe my theory might be valid:
1.
When the press strikes, the return speed is almost equal, or even greater, due to rebound.
2. The planchet, when struck, only the surface is converted into a "semi-liquid", and therefor is liken to a pan of batter. The surface is semi-fluid in that it is like a mud pie. When you put a flat surface against a "soft surface", (the planchet, at the moment of the strike), and then a sudden with-drawal, will create SUCTION, which in turn will tend to pull parts of the surface up, and then fall away, thus creating what are referred to as "trails, and wavy steps. The particular name being determined by the location, and amount of solid "face", area in the rising "hammer die". Think about it, and have a nice day!
Dick
PS. This will NOT explain why this anomaly has not presented itself before. Maybe we just hadn't noticed, before.
PS#2. BJ, When you talk to Ken, again, ask him this for me: After the strike, is the "coin" free enough, (in the collar), to partially rise, with the rising of the hammer die? Or, must the Anvil die eject the coin from the collar die? This obviously would affect the "face" towards the "anvil die", and the formation of the trails, and wavy-steps.
Dick

[Earwig]

I would really be interested in what way the mint heat treats the dies they make. Im sure that is probably something that they wouldnt disclose. Well im looking foward to reading your conclusions. And i will continue to try and think what could cause this effect and offer my ideas to help solve this mystery

Eric

[wavysteps2003]

Hi Dick - You present an interesting theory, however, how would you explain the tappering of all lines that are produced with wavysteps / trail dies? Or in fact, that the lines tend to fade as die age progresses?

Here is an interesting experiment that you can try and see what results that you come up with. Take a piece of play-do or modling clay or something similar and flatten it out. Now take a straight edge and press it into the surface of the clay, doing it several times, trying to keep the lines fairly parallel with each other, until you have a series of about five to seven lines. Now, in one area with the lines, take the same straight edge and press it into the lines at an oblique or perpendicular angel. In another are with the same lines, take a fork and drag it through the same lines at an oblique angle. Compare the intersections and see the difference. The crossing points of the lines when the straight edge was pressed into the surface of the clay are still straight forming precise angles in opposite directions. However, when the fork is dragged through the lines, the lines themselves tend to bow at the crossing point in the direction of the drag. This is what happens with wavy steps / trails; the steps bow as the fluting line passes through them or, the top edge of the cornice bows when trail lines from the tops of the columns (which are very similar to the fluting lines) pass through that design element. This is one of the most convience points that there is movement of the die, in the horizontal plane, against the hub.

It is true that the surface of the planchet does become less rigid during the strike and that is called cold metal flow and if the metal were in a state of something even closely resembling a "semi-liquid" then none of the design elements would be able to hold their features and degrade into a mushy state.

What it boils down to is that all facts point to the die and hub and some action that takes place between the two while in the single squeeze process.

Thanks Dick for your thoughts, I do appreciate it and also to anyone else who are thinking of ways that these anomalies could happen.

WAVYSTEPS2003 aka BJ Neff

[Dick]

BJ, I appreciate your consideration, and critique of my "theory". Of course, if no one takes time to think about these things, we would never had the wheel invented! Some caveman was cutting a tree in small pieces for firewood, and one of then rolled away He thought, now how did that happen? Then he tried rolling another piece of the treee, and found it was much easier than dragging. result: The wheel was invented. crude? Yes. Likely? Not particularily. Thanks, BJ.
Dick

[coop]

So that is how you invented the wheel Dick. How about fire?