Coin's grade over die state.

[Gabe]

Ive heard many people advertising doubled dies on ebay as being one of the highest graded. I this a lot for the 1995 DDO cent, since so many are out in Ms67+ condition.

My question is- What do you think is more important, die state or condition? If you had to chose between a Lincoln variety in MS66 Rd but in LDS, and between the same variety in MS61 RD, but in VEDS, which would you chose? Both coins dont show any dings or damage on the doubled areas.

[eagames]

I would not want the 61RD because it's so much lower. When selling it most buyers may not care beyond the grade.

On 95 DDOs the state does matter so I'd shift by a grade or two to get and EDS. On those 95 DDOs at some point the doubling gets less sharp and they have many polishing lines.

Other DDOs matter even more like on the 1955 die 2 (1DO-002) the later states hardly show any doubling so If buying one I might not want a later example with almost no doubling unless I found it myself.

Same with some RPMs, there's a 56 D/S that in EDS you can see it's a D/S but in later states it's just a D with a spike on it.

So my answer is shift by one grade maybe two on most but on others where the variety almost dissapears the LDS should be much cheaper.

[Bob P]

Think you got something backward there Ed. On the 56 D/S, it is not until the Late Die State where you can tell it's an S. The early die state shows as a 'horn shaped protrusion' off the D. In a case like this, the die state could take precedent. There are other varieties in which the later the die state, the easier it is to see the variety itself.
Basically though, I would tend not to get too wrapped up about die state if purchasing coins. There can be and are many coins that will still grade nicely, even in a die state other than EDS.

[eagames]

Oops!

Pretty funny though that it shows best on later ones but I had seen that on others as well.

[coppercoins]

For me it's all in the details. If the MS61 coin in VEDS isn't too detrimentally affected (meaning it's a decent coin for an MS61) I would rather have it as to have the higher grade coin in LDS. Reason? The VEDS coins are FAR rarer than the later die state coins, and are FAR more difficult to locate. Given the choice of the two on a table, I'd take the VEDS because I know availability of any die variety in LDS will be far greater.

So...I'd rather take a lower grade VEDS now and search for the LDS higher grade later rather than have a higher grade mushy details coin and have to pass up on the opportunity to own a very sharply detailed coin with some problems.

[Robert]

So how do you tell VEDS (very early die state) from EDS or MDS? I think I have a handle on LDS (late die state).

[coppercoins]

VEDS - NO flow lines at all. Everything is razor sharp and crisp.

EDS - Very light feathering at the outside edges of the outer devices and some light flowlines in some areas.

MDS - light to moderate feathering of the outer details, flow lines will be present but rather light. Some loss of sharpness expected around the outside of the design.

LDS - Loss of detail from heavier flow lines and feathering. Outside edges of devices may be nearly gone.

VLDS - Only major details remain. Flow lines are very heavy and take over the design of the coin. Outer edges of outer devices are gone and often connect with the rim.

[Robert]

So the flow lines appear first along the edge of the coin.

It seems like the only "degree of freedom" the metal has when it is squeezed by the die is "outward" toward the collar. So the metal closest to the edge of the blank travels the farthest lateral distance of any metal in the blank. So the metal rubs along the surface of the die as it is squeezed radially outward. Small, local variations in the die plust the die features themselves combine to channel this metal flow into preferential paths. So the first few coins show no macroscopic wear (VEDS) patterns but the foundation for future wear has been laid. After a few coins are struck, these paths become somewhat permanent and begin to get deeper and more pronounced (EDS). After many coins are struck, the wear is apparent (MDS) and after a very large amount of coins are struck the coin is deeply affected (LDS).

Sort of like waves on a beach. The water from the waves washes up relatively evenly, but due to small differences in the topography of the beach, much of the water wants to run out in a relative few "low spots" which are a fraction of an inch lower than the surrounding sand. This is the basis for rip tides.