question for the veteran searchers

[hasfam]

Is it just me or has anyone else compiled a large quantity of 2004-2006 Lincolns with seemingly DDR's of vertical bars, feet and knees that cannot be identified to any numbering system? I even stopped looking for markers. I'm just trying to match pics of size and location of the doubling. I'm not even concerned with minor stuff. I spent another couple of hours trying to ID about a dozen 2005-P DDR's last night. For instance, The bar looks right but the foot is on the left and not on the right. or, The bar is above his head and not by the knees. etc. Can't seem to get a handle on these DDR's. I've only started looking them in the past 3 months so obviously I have a lot to learn. Searching any kind of a marker, and taking into consideration variations of the doubling due to die state and stage. Its almost overwhelming.
Any advice would be cool.
Thanks, Rock

[coop]

They are tough to match as most aren't listed. I'm trying to get a roll of them to send to one member who really collects these. But they are hard to match. They happen from 1986-2007 as far as I can tell. The strongest ones should be brought to Bob's attention as they will probably listed if they are strong enough. Seems like a lot of minor ones also found. So when I find one, I set aside for Bill Slaughter. He has hundred of them they his trying to list. So I figure I will help him with any I find.

[Dick]

Rock, Coop, It is very hard to identify a die when the only site with a large photo data bank does not have a photo, and no way to tie a coin to a variety, that has the info, but no photo. I gave up trying to figure out the CONECA info, because I can't see the info well enough to pin down what I have in hand. The same with the books I have, "not enough info". Wonder if they will ever put up a photo reference, like ours? It would sure be nice! Of course, I would have to buy flips "by the case"!
Coop, I got a box today from PHX, and it has 60 rolls of cents! All the damaged, and otherwise ruined coins had been weeded out, and then sent to me! I guess you know I'll be busy for a while. There seems to be quite a large "P" count in them. I broke down half of them by 2k-date, and by decade.
I'll get to the other half, "one of these days"!
Dick

[Bob P]

The column bars and extra feet and such are very numerous. We made it a point to establish a minimum strength before we put it on the site. As of right now, I have 12 rolls of these things (minor DDRs) that I just keep putting aside until I can get a look at them all. I try to set aside all of them that have a bar and feet or knees. Those are more likely to get listed. Other than that, the single bars must be relatively strong and the length must be at least as long as the leg. Don't look to CONECA to list any of these as I don't believe they will take the time to examine them like we do.

[hasfam]

Well, I have stopped using flips. Running out too fast. I'm starting to put them in anco tubes. I have 3 boxes of them so I have plenty of room to find lots of them. I agree about those that show both a bar and feet or knees. They are definately more interesting. Who knows, maybe I'll start my own numbering system and publish the best seller "One Million and one double die reverses of the 2006 Lincoln Cent." Seriously, I wonder, years from now which of these will really be remembered and worth anything. the#17 or #18? Or will they be so common they will be looked at like the double bar on so many of the "L"s in liberty on wheats. Well, in the meantime I'm just going to stash them away and wait.
Rock

[murphy]

When you find a lot of something minor, like the minor 2006P DDO's, it's only fun for a while, then it gets old. The ones I find now goes into plastic tubes marked Minor DDO's. I stopped looking on the backs of all but the best looking 2006 cents. There's too many bars and minor wavysteps that it slowed me down from finding other stuff I deemed more enjoyable to find.

I'm finding that there's a lot of unknown 2006P DDO's that are in fact a different stage of a known variety. And by observing each one and trying to match obverse or reverse markers it sometimes is possible to find a match. There are several of us doing just that around here and I think that when the site is updated we will be able to get those variations of dies in the listings and our work will become centralized and a lot easier.

[Dick]

Gentlemen, Good evening. I found a very minor bar,today. It is the size of theupper-arm, and as such too minor to post on the site, but it goes with the other bars. The Errorscope gives a very detailed way of keeping track of them, (1890), I believe Slaughter said. Only one "bar", so far, 1997D-1DR-XXX. I don't plan on finding that many, but, who knows? Rock, you might find it worth your while. If you are a member of CONECA, you have this info.
The other varieties are the ones I refer to primarily, because they are so plentiful, but the listings on the site, (without photos), are the ones I have trouble with. I usually find enough data to verify the die, and many tijmes the coin shows an earlier stage, (pre-"damage"/marker), and as such, is harder to identify, fully. I put these in flips, and identify as 1DO, or 1DR, without the die info. They will be checked at some future date by me, or "someone", and then finished identifying. Those that have some, or part of the data, are marked with a big "?", and filed. Murph knows what I mean!
Coop, I don't believe I will be "recyling" any of those you put back into circulation! Too many good ones still there! The ones I have seen so far, are in very good condition.. There are a large amount of 60's, 70's, and 80's, with a majority of '90's. There are even five 2007's there. Many "P"'s, and The other half yet to be checked. I am going thru the first (mixed) roll from the first half. I'll let you know what "pops up"
Dick

[coppercoins]

I might be restating the obvious here, but the responsibility I took on in building this website was to list all the die varieties of the Lincoln cent. Not just the most major ones, but all of them. One of the main problems I had with CONECA was that their "too minor" stipulation with a lot of RPMs and other die varieties was - for lack of better terms - ridiculous. There were a number of die varieties I could easily see with a 10X loupe that they were calling "too minor".

Now we run into an impass...literally hundreds of minor doubled dies most likely being caused by the single-squeeze hubbing process and its imperfections. This is turning listing new finds into a full-time job. Bob and I have spent countless hours comparing mintmark position, markers, possible markers, notches, split serifs, and the like. If you remember, it was less than three weeks ago that we went over 10,000 photos on the server, and already we have 10,500. At this rate we could hit 20,000 within a year.

I want this site to be the most comprehensive listing of die varieties available in any form, anywhere. It already is, but I want it to completely blow away any attempt to compete. The number of images on this site more than doubles all of the images in printed books on errors and varieties. That really says something.

With all this having been said, there are two people taking photos, uploading them, editing die information, adding new finds, attributing people's coins, etc., etc...and the money it makes is abysmal when you consider that it could take three hours of staring at coins and photos to determine the die number of a single coin. It often takes a full 12 hour day to finish one package of a dozen coins.

I'm not complaining here--far from it, actually. I love it, and never loved it more than I do now. BUT. Bob and I both have work we need to do to make the money that keeps us alive. If we added dies at the rate they are being found, we would never do anything else.

This comes at an especially poignant time for me because I have spent the last three days working 12 hours a day to push out three attribution packages, and am still only half complete...and I collected a total of $113 for what will turn into six days of work. I'm not being testy, but if anyone out there came here and watched what goes on here for a day when I'm armpit deep in packages of coins, you'd understand exactly where I'm coming from.

Now...PLEASE...have some patience with all the new stuff you're finding. There are probably a thousand different doubled dies out there that haven't been published in any form, haven't been discovered, haven't been attributed yet, or just haven't seen a camera. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was this site. It's been a five-year ongoing project, and isn't even half complete.

Use the criteria we've discussed on the forum before...a bar needs to be the length of hand to foot on the statue OR have some other defining characteristic (extra knees, hands, feet, or another bar) to be listed. Anything else is just adding salt to the wounds of not catching up before we're dead and probably isn't going to matter anyway. Let's focus on the neat stuff, notching, wavy steps we can see with very little magnification, bars that stick out like a sore thumb, statues with four knees...and leave the minor stuff for the next generation to find.

And most of all, keep it fun. If it's work, you're probably in the wrong hobby. If you don't have the thrill when you find them, maybe this isn't right for you...but if you do, keep them, organize them, and get them ready to send in for photos and addition to the site...when we are ready for them.

[coppercoins]

By the way, that post wasn't meant to be directed at anyone...rather everyone. Some here have acknowledged the back breaking work that goes into building this site, but very few here have ever actually done the day-in, day-out comparing, photographing, overlaying, typing, listing, editing, and searching that goes into building it.

Bob has done much of the work this past year at listing new varieties, and spent hours per evening at least three days a week working on it. I have had other priorities to attend to of late, but I have my fair share of day after day photography, editing, typing, etc., so I can speak for both of us.

Only four people involved in coins have ever sat and watched what I do when I pick up a coin to figure out what it is and what to do with it, and only one other person knows all the steps I go through when doing it now because he's the other person doing the work. I've changed microscopes, cameras, lighting, computers, and methodology over time, and things are starting to break free and get easier...well, faster. Not easier.

I'd LOVE to be able to share directly with each of you what we go through when we get your coins. I'd LOVE to sit you donw and have you watch the steps - each one - coin after coin after coin. I can tell you that you'd gain a completely new appreciation for repetitive work. I can edit photos in Photoshop with one eye closed, and the other drifting into space. I can take, edit, save, upload, and describe well over a hundred photos on a good day, and so can Bob.

Imagine for a moment the lighting direction to take the photos, the exact zoom that changes with every photo. Finding the markers, comparing them to other coins and photos. Figuring out that an overlay will be necessary to figure out whether a coin belongs to a die that's already listed. Finding out that it's not the same die, then having to take 10 photos of the coin to list it. Copy the photos to the computer, assign a die number, rename the photos, open them in Photoshop, set up a template, lay the photos into the template one at a time paying attention to light, contrast, levels, saturation, color, and a myriad of other settings to make it as good as possible. Retaking some photos because the ones from the first run didn't come out well. Finish editing the information, adding arrows to the photos, and uploading the images, then it's off to the admin panel of the site to add the information we found.

Oh, that's just ONE coin....probably a $2 circulated wheat doubled eyelid.

I'm a nut for this stuff. I do it every time I get a chance. I keep coming back for more. I keep having people send another package. I have over 300 coins in the master collection I know I need to photo, another 1,500 in my stock drawer that need to be attributed and either put up for sale or added to the master collection, then around 500,000 more that need to be searched. I will not finish in my lifetime...but I keep coming back for more, because I like it. Because I know none of the other sources would put in the time or effort. Because I know I need to see my dream to fruition.

I looked for this site the first day I had a PC and an internet connection. I had to figure out it didn't exist...so I set out to build it. Over the past eight years I have attained a degree at college, built a hoard of hundreds of thousands of coins, given up full-time employment, and given up all the other hobbies I used to be involved in to build this site...and here we are.

Welcome to my world, ladies and gentlemen.

Enough for a day...Not crazy, not pissed, not loopy. Just talking, sharing thoughts, and explaining where I am with all this. Heck, I'm working on it again! Bob needs the rest and the site still needs a lot of work. We tag-team at this and it's my turn to produce now. Off to bed for another productive day tomorrow. I should be putting on 200 photos tomorrow as I dredge through attribution packages.

[Dick]

Sleep easy, Chuck, You have earned it, many times over!!!
Thanks to you, and YOUR dream, we have the best site, and forum on the planet! You may not finish it in your lifetime, but then, neither will we. We will be "lurking", and learning, thanks to you, and your "staff". God Bless!
Dick

[wavysteps2003]

Chuck amd Bob - I for one understand and appreciate all the work that has been put into this site. It is a tremendous accomplishment and an outstanding work in progress.

As I work on the wavy step / trail files (design extensions) almost daily, I do know the work invovled, the amount of photos needed for just one entery and the research needed to find if it is a new die or one already listed. It is a lot of work and at times a break is required to clear one's mind and re-focus on the ultimate goal of what you are trying to accomplish.

When you started this site, I think that you did not suspect the amount of doubled dies that would be generated by the single squeeze process. No one did, for the Mint firmly stated that the doiubled die had met its demise. So now we have upwards of over a thousand more new Lincoln cent varities to deal with. Also, there is the impact of the scopes now being used, which seem to be uncovering new variety dies daily in older Lincoln cents. In other words, the work to be done seems to be increasing rather than diminishing, for listing all the varieties of the Lincoln cent.

Chuck, this is just a suggestion, but it may be time to tap into some unused resources and dole out some of the work to other people, instead of placing it on the shoulders of just two people, you and Bob.

BJ Neff

[hasfam]

After reading Chuck's post I re-read my original post to see if I was coming across as being frustrated with this site or with the hobby because that was definately NOT my intention. I am enternally grateful for the existence of this site and forum and I do have a deep appreciation for every part of it. This site brought me back to the hobby. A few years ago I was frustrated and dropped my membership with CONECA and stopped looking at coins. I too looked for something like this site 10 years ago and found nothing. I didn't have the time, resources, knowledge or heart to do what you did Chuck. I have the utmost respect for you and Bob. Your work has and is turning the tide in this hobby. I only wish I could help in some small way. Give a little instead of just taking. Yes, I will be making regular donations. But more than that, I want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Rock

[coppercoins]

Rock,

Again, I don't want you or anyone else to think I was frustrated, mad, pissed, or going crazy. I just think it's really easy for people to NOT know what's involved in this from the administrative end. Indeed there is a ton of work, and I was just relaying that in saying not to give up because all this minor new stuff isn't currently listed...we're working our fingers to the bone to catch up on it. We just haven't gotten there yet. I was saying to the crowd, have patience...eventually we will have all the hundreds of newer doubled dies listed.

Look at it this way...RPMs are impossible and have been since 1990 - there's one relief point.

[hasfam]

Thank you. Let me just say this, that just meeting and being able to talk to people on this forum such as yourself, Bob, Coop, Murph, Dick, Rhubarb, and others has been more rewarding than you can imagine. Always kind, sincere, helpful and often witty. Who could ask for more. AND over 10,000 educational photos to help us along on our journey. Life is good. You and so many others involved with this project made it that way.
Thanks again

Rock

[Bob P]

I think Chuck said it all, and I certainly agree with everything. He can normally speak for me as we do mostly the same things. Chuck is the head guru here though. Whenever I have a problem, suggestion etc., that is whom I turn to. He gives me wide latitude on making decisions for the site, and I do so knowing that I can screw up occasionally. Either way, for Chuck and I, (and probably all f you), this site is the answer for years and years of frustration.
For Rock....I too gave up CONECA for the same reasons you did. I am a member again though because they also attribute other denominations that we don't.....YET! We do have grand visions to do this same thing for all denominations and list them in US Coin Varieties. That is where we will take BJs suggestion and look for folks to help us.
Basically folks, we both do this because we love it. I, unfortunately, have a full time job, sometimes working 6 days a week. Once in a while, I would just love to look through a few rolls of coins without feeling bad because I have someone else's coins sitting here waiting on attributions. I have decided to do that, and try to get my own collection in order. I am taking a break, but certainly not giving up what I like to do in the limited spare time I have. We will take care of you, not only because we want to, but because this has turned into a family of sorts. I personally find it very satisfying that total strangers can meet in this forum, and it's almost like we have known you forever. The passion for varieties is in us all to one extent or another. I am sure we will be talking things over again like this 10 years from now.