Vestige of "S" far NE on 1909-S VDB ?

[Danester]

I think we need to start a new topic on this from the Question about 56 D and D thread.

OK, I think I now know how to post an image. This is Garry's 1909-S VBD MS-62. I have indicated where the vestige of the "S" apprears on my MS-64 (same obv. die).

It becomes very clear when you hit the correct light and tilt of the coin. I can kind of see it below, but it can be made more visible. This could be a "blockbuster" ! Whatever it is, it's on both eamples (MS-62 & MS-64) that Garry I and have.



The Danester

[rollmeupabe]

Sorry to be blunt, but it looks like the size of the second S would be half the size of the primary mintmark.

[coppercoins]

I agree - I don't think this looks like a mintmark at all. Just a ghost squiggly of flow lines that happen to form a shape.

[Danester]

I have retrieved my 1909-S VDB from "Safety Deposit Box Jail". Late today when things slow-down, I will snap some images of my MS-64 example. I hesitate calling it a discovery coin yet until we do more research.

But let's have some discussion on the possibility it is a far punched "S". Yes, I also observed that it looks smaller.... but that could be the reason for the far re-punch. Think about it - this could be the first San Francisco Lincoln Cent die to have an "S" punched into it. "Opps too small", so do it over again!

Gotta go put my Hilton Football Contest picks in - later.

The Danester

[GarryN]

The extra "S" on the '09 S VDB is a little less visible than the '56 D OMM here.

This one was graded MS66 red by NGC, if anyone is interested. Ive never seen one graded that high by anyone. But then, SGS would call it 70.


http://home.comcast.net/~g.naples/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-1198206.html

I have a 7x loupe and I do not see any indication of an "S" NE of the primary. There are alot of brown flecks that get in the way when you look at the coin itself. But I can see how someone, using my photo could make a case it is there. If it was polished off, the inside outline of the S might match the outline on the primary. Just a thought. I am looking forward to seeing your specimen, Dennis. It is awesome you have a 64. And Chuck, dont worry about commenting; just the fact that you read my ramblings, is enough of an honor for me.

[Danester]

OK, let me know what you think. I pulled out my new Sony Cyber-shot and tried it for the first time. I used the technique Chuck showed me at this year’s July St. Louis show. However I could not get the PVC connector to work so, I just held the camera up to the microscope eye-piece and snap a lot of images.

To capture what looks like a vestige of an "S" far NE on this 1909-S VDB obverse die, I found it best to turn-off the microscope light and use only some defused light from the side and also setting the coin at a slight tilt helped. If you look at this coin with light flowing straight down the vestige “S” is gone. Let's be frank.... if seeing this vestige mintmark was easy and clear it would have been discovered long before this. So, don't be too disappointed that it doesn’t quite measure-up to a 1956-D/D 1MM-008 far vestige D South or a 1951-D/Vestige S far East. I think it is neat.

If this is a far punched “S”, it would then seem the San Francisco Mint took some time and effort to eliminate any trace of it. The scenario that the S.F. Mint I didn't like the first "S" punch attempt (size and location) on their first Lincoln Cent die could be true.

Our next step is to get our mitts on a Red Gem 65 or 66 at next month’s Fun Show and take some more digital images. So, far we have two separate examples (my PCGS MS-64 Red-Brown below, and Garry’s MS-62 Brown above) where we have the same thing going on. That would kind of eliminate the “Virgin Mary on the piece of pizza” situation.

Image 1 of 4


Image 2 of 4


Image 3 of 4


Image 4 of 4

[coppercoins]

Well, the first problem I see right off is that the two different coins photographed are from two separate dies. While I can somewhat understand a faint RPM that is yet to be discovered on ONE die from the key date of the series, I hardly believe the same type of RPM on two different dies of the key date of the series.

Honestly, I don't see anything on either coin that represents, even faintly, an additional mintmark. This, of course, is not a 100% sure statement that there isn't anything there. The images could have something to do with it. I just don't see it.

[Danester]

Chuck, I have a reference somewhere which shows the 4 obverse dies of the 1909-S VDB. I thought that there was only one (like my MS-64) that had an "S" with an off-tilt. That is why I said they were the same obverse die.... but you are correct they are different. They are similar in location and "tilt" of the "S" - but different. I guess Garry was then right when he said he didn't see anything on his coin.

Back to square one.... we still need to look at some high grade EDS of this obverse die. I can flash this coin under a Loupe and what looks like an upper half of an "S" comes in and out of view like a hologram.

The Danester

[coop]

Dennis: It could be that it shows up only on LDS/VLDS coins also. Some RPMs blend in as they get to the later die state, but some just get stronger in the later die states. Case in point the 1956-D/S # 2. The later die states show the complete S in earlier die states it is hardly visible. I remember a discussion we had about a 1960D-1MM-002 Cent. Just found it:

Here we go...... I bought a tube of 1960D-1MM-002 Cents off Ebay a few years back and the image in the RPM book and the RPMs I bought looked close to that image. Then I got another one of the one that was the correct die and it looked different from the roll I purchased. Now looking at the two images, one had a light West on the inside of the mintmark and one had a heavy West on the inside of the mintmark. I kept them around for a long time, stopped selling them cause I wasn't sure if they were from the same die. So the question is, are these two images of coins from the same die??? Its baffled me for a long time and yesterday I figured out what the answer was...............:

We have had discussions here before about die wear/die breaks/etc, but I didn't see what the answer was till lately. When a die wears the details of the sharpness disappears. Why? Because the die is now missing part of the metal that made the detail visible. So as a die wears it some metal is removed with each coin that is struck with it. So what is the answer to my question? There both were from the same die.
So die wear affects different devices differently according to where the anomoly is located on the die. When the die wears it removes part of the die and makes a different shape than the EDs coins would be. Mintmarks get larger or blend into the field with wear. VLDS coins then to not have the edge close to the devices. They tend to almost flow together, field and devices with what appears to be a ramp flowing in between the two. So die wear does change coin and not for the better.

[GarryN]

Aha! Two different obverse dies. One thing I noticed was that the mint mark on Dennis' specimen does not exhibit the same die chip in the upper loop of the "S" as mine does.

Did you say yours was brown, Dennis? Or RB?

[Danester]

Yes, it is a PCGS MS-64 Red-Brown.

[coppercoins]

I had the chance to view some three dozen 1909S and 1909S VDB cents at the FUN show that were in MS66-67RD, and none of them had any hint of an RPM. I don't doubt you're seeing something on your coin and in your photos, but I don't think it was on the die, and I really don't think it was a mintmark.

[Danester]

I found another example of the "So called" 1909-S/S wide and lighly re-punched to the NE. Same obverse die in an early die state. Check it out, and let me know what you think.

In a Superior auction now PCGS-63 BN


http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/335-1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-1C-PCGS-MS63-BR_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ52618QQihZ002QQitemZ120108201458QQrdZ1

The Danester

[Danester]

When I say same "obverse die", I mean the same as my PCGS-64 RB which I sold a while back.

I think we may be on to something here... Chuck buy this coin and photograph it.

The Danester

[eagames]

That's a costly way to get a photo

I think the answer is die squiggle.

Coop said some RPMs get stronger in later states. I think the same thing happens to squiggles, metal flow follows the weak squiggle and digs it deeper in later states.

On the 80-D/S which was de-listed I looked at many (many 80-d cents looking for a d/s) and found several dies have different squiggles that look like an S. Most looked too small. These were not in the same exact location as the de-listed one but close! I still have them and could post a few but I'm convinced they're squiggles not RPMs and my guess is that 09-S is probably something similar.

Many people study the S on their S-VDB (maybe more than any other coin) and many exist of each of the 4 dies and nobody has verified there to be a wide RPM.

The only way to solve it 100% is get some pics of a nice high grade and do an overlay.

Added later:

Here's some 80-D/squiggles that I think are similar to the de-listed fs-034.1 variety, especialy the bottom one, it looks a lot like a weak S above the D but I bet it's similar to the de-listed one but slightly different position... see that S shape