1990 wavy

[Steven]

This one has wavysteps under all columns and short fluting lines under 3, 11 and 12. Looks similar to the 1990 1DR-001 but not sure it is the same. Already checked for the markers. none matching.

Steven

[coop]

Its not a major wavystep, but interesting on the right side as you can see the fluting from the columns. BJ would probably be the best one to ask about your coin. It may be more listable because of the right side of the columns.

[Bob P]

I agree. It is a nice wavy step. Let's see what BJ says and see if he has it identified already.

[wavysteps2003]

Talking about being behind times - I completely missed this one. It is 1990P-1DER-002WS and not listed on this site.

You are right, both 001 (listed in coppercoins') and 002 are similar, however, 002 does affect the left side stylobate as yours does.

BJ Neff

[Steven]

Thanks BJ,
It's only been a month. I knew you'd get around to it...
Steven

[Dick]

BJ, please excuse my ignorance, but what does the "1DER"-002WS. mean? I know it is WS, but the center section, is what stumps me. Is it your own ID system?
Dick

[wavysteps2003]

I guess I should explain this number system. Since I believe that these anomalies, wavy steps and trails (one in the same thing), are actual design extensions instead of die design replications (doubled die), I instituted this numbering system. So it goes like this;

Die Date - Mint - Design Extension (DE) - Obverse (O) / Reverse (R) - die listing number - Wavy Step (WS) or Trail (T) or combination of both (WST).

The old WSDDR identification just did not fit what was happening (Wavy step Doubled Die Reverse) for I am including trail dies in the files now and they sometimes appear on the obverse.

As far as the coppercoins' listings, when I have completed all the files, I will then give Bob a list of the changes to the numbers.

BJ Neff

[Dick]

BJ, thanks for the explanation! I was thinking I had missed something in the system.
Dick

[hasfam]

BJ,
Could you define "design extensions" as it applies here or would it be too complicated making it too difficult for a quick reply? I have a good grasp of the older minting process and how the different class double dies are created if that helps at all. Not sure if knowing the old will help to understand the new but I want to learn.
Thanks,
Rock
BTW, since January I have found about 200 coins with column bars but only 3 coins with wavy steps and none with trails. They are definately very intriguing.

[Steven]

Just guessing I would say it's when part of the design as in this coin the column fluting has extended into the steps below?????????????

[wavysteps2003]

Hi Rock - First, let us look at what a doubled die is. A doubled die is the doubling, through hubbing, of a design element (lettering, numbers, columns, stars, etc.). Wavy steps and trails are NOT design element doubling. When wavy steps were first found, it appeared that the fluting lines in the columns were being offset into the stairs below as a doubled die. However, there has been enough evidence amassed to disprove this is not true. The crtical part of this arguement was the association of wavy steps and trails as being one and the same effect, only in different directions. Not all the experts agree on this point, as a matter of fact, there are widely diffent concepts on just what these lines are and no one is sure how they are formed. The majority of us believe that it is somewhere in the hubbing process, but how and when is a mystery.

From the information that I have obtained from the study of all the dies in my collection, I have determined that the lines we are seeing are NOT a form of doubling. They are in fact a continuation of the design element, caused by the die dragging across the hub face, If you refer back to my post "1999 Trail Die" and look at the trail from the bottom of the T in CENT, you will notice that it is undulating and not straight. Since a doubled die is the actual doubling of a design element, this unevenness would not happen if it were a doubled die. What we are actually seeing in this case is the sharp point of the T on the hub digging into the die as it moves in a northwest direction or in other words a continuation of the design element.
Of course this is just a theory and I am having a tough time proving that it could happen, especially when confronted with the die that I showed in "A very compicated Trail die".

One of these days though, we will have the answer and know just what is happening. Until then, all we can do is keep trying to figure things out and keep searching for these anomalies.

BJ Neff

[hasfam]

Thanks BJ. I understand a bit more now but of course with one question answered ten more arise. It seems to me that it would require some time spent at the Mint where some one could follow the process and examine the dies as they were being made. Also, is it just the working dies that are produced with a single squeeze. What about the master die and working hubs. Another thing I thought would be interesting is if it were possible to identify each die with it's serial number. Wouldn't it be something if they could have someone not only examing each die when it is produced but to photograph the 1st few strikes and catalogue the pics with the die serial number for prosperity and numismatic research.
Rock

[wavysteps2003]

Hi Rock - Presently, all dies, from the master to the working and all hubs are made from the single squeeze hubbing process.

Yes, it would take time at the Mint to see what is happening and even then it would be questionable if you could find the cause. We must remember that these anomalies are happening only on about 0.0001 % of the dies made, so it would be like trying to find a certain sardine in the Pacific Ocean.

That is a neat idea of matching die serial number to a photograph of the strike. HOWEVER, it would not work well. The most obvious reason is that the die changes as it progresses in life. Refer back to the post on the 1964-D with strong DDR where you can see the changes happening. Plus, since the mint is in operation 7/24, they would have little time left to do that.

BJ Neff