1964-D, Lincoln cent with very strong DDR; die comparision

[wavysteps2003]

It is rare to be able to photograph such a strong DDR and even rarer that it is newly found die and extremly rare to be able to make a comparision of the same die with different die states.

However, as luck would have it and thanks to Gene Nichols for supplying the LDS version of this coin, we can make it possible.

This is a 1964-D, Lincoln cent with a very strong doubled die reverse, possibly a Class I. The two different states shown are LEDS/EMDS and LDS. As you look through the pictures, you can see just how much the notching and division lines do detriorate as the die progresses in age. When looking at the photos, the earlier die state wil be on the top or on the left (one picture).























It is surprising how much detrioration does take place as the die ages and when searching those later die state coins, it may be wise to take just a little bit longer look at them.

Ken Potter has entered this die into his system as DDR#1.

BJ Neff

[eagames]

I think it's the same DDR listed in Wexlers book "The Lincoln Cent Doubled Die" (from the 80s) and he listed this as 1964-D 1-R-V. I don't think it's the DDR die-1 (or anything else) that coneca lists.

Have you compared it to the one in Wexlers book?

I've looked for that ddr but never found one.

[aballein]

wow...i have never seen such a comparison for a double die in two different die states. fascinating stuff right there. that is some really useful information in regards to identifying what die state a know variety is.

[Dick]

BJ, you just proved that it is possible to find "close states "of deterioration, of the same die. I knew it was possible, but had no idea as to how many strikes would have been made to show this close. Do you have an extreme guess?
Dick

[wavysteps2003]

If I were to put an estimated amount of strikes between the two it would be 200,000 to 350,000, but that is a pure guess.

I do not have JAW's book showing that die and I do know that CONECA does not have this die listed, James Wiles has confirmed that. Nor does Coppercoins, so I will be sending them up to Bob for his analysis and possible entry into the site.

BJ Neff

[Bob P]

Very well done BJ. Those are excellent comparison pictures. I have tons of 64D DDRs to add to the site, and so doesn't Chuck. It is one of those dates (like 1962) that there is so much to do. 1964 and 1964D do have some very nice doubled die reverse specimens. I would still be inclined to list that one as a class 2, but very possible a multiple designator for it.

[wavysteps2003]

Bob - If I had a choice of classes I would think Class I or Class V would be better. Class II on a whole are fairly minor and these dies show to much spread on the UN of UNITED and the NT of CENT to be expansion. My gut feeling is that this is a Class V (even though I originally called it a Class I) since it appears that the center points of the first hubbing to the second hubbing are offset in the diagonal plane. But anyway, they are coming your way and then off to James Wiles.

BJ Neff

[eagames]

BJ,

I'll email you a pic of the listing, looks the same to me.
The pic won't be great.

JAW listed it as class V from a pivot point at K6... Looks the same to me. Sound like it?

Hope it helps

[wavysteps2003]

Thanks Ed - BJ

[Dick]

BJ, can you tell me if a ding, ( for example, on the "I" of America, the top photo has a good sized ding on the mid, to low, area ), will this tend to wear, in circulation, to the point that it should dissapear? I nquire, because I don't see the remnants of the ding. Instead, there are other, different dings. Could this indicate a change of the OBV die, at some time after the ding, and prior to the time the coin in question was struck? I also noticed the same things on "UNUM", and "CENT
Dick

[wavysteps2003]

Dick - I think what you are looking at are circulation marks that happen outside the mint from every day handling and have nothing to do with the striking of the coin. Actually, the MDS coin has more dings in it than the LDS coin which is in the area of MS-62.

BJ Neff

[Dick]

BJ, you missed my point. I refer to the dings, etc that are "POST" mint. The three points I mentioned, are all "post" mint damage, ( dents, rips, smears, gouges, etc.). The three were there before the next stage was shown, but NOT afterwards. That is, (was) the reason for my question.
Dick

[wavysteps2003]

Hi Dick - I guess I am missing something. Neither of thius coins has any identifying die markers and all the markes are from circulation or "post" Mint (after mint) handling.

BJ Neff

[coppercoins]

It's a class 1. The notches are on the same corner of the letters going all the way around.

[Dick]

Gentlemen, At the risk of beinga big "pain", I'll try to articulate, more specifically. On the last pair of photos IE, E-PLURIBUS-UNUM. Note the letters "P", and, "UN". They have heavy dents, running paralell with each other. This is the earlier stage. Compare the letters in the next stage, (second): They look like they have been to the body shop, and are in "great shape"! Die change? If this doesn't solve the "mystery", I'll just drop it. Thank for your patience!
Dick