1909 VDB lapped from die

[drwstr123]

That's the story when i bought this coin. Make sense? There was a VBD, then no VDB. Could the interim dies have had the VDB ground from them?
I'd love to hear some opinions. Mike

[Bob P]

It certainly doesn't make sense that they would do that, especially since the VDB cents were already circulating. To me, it doesn't look like severe enough polishing to have removed the V.D.B. if this story was true Mike. Of course, I wasn't there, so that is strictly my opinion. I say more 'story' than truth.

[Dick]

I am no expert on these thngs, but I will say, there was never, a VDB on the spot normally used for the initials! The indications are TOO weak to have removed more than minor residue, at most. My Dad told me " Don't believe anything you read, and only half of what you see"! The extreme close-ups only prove my point. Hope you didn't pay too much for it!
Dick

[drwstr123]

I'm not sure, but I think there's a misunderstanding. When the VDB was deemed too prominent, before new dies were made, the VDB was ground from the existing dies. (lapped) The striations on this coin are possibly the resulting strike. I'll post the original owner's description. Thanks, Mike

[coop]

If it were polished out, they would have made a flatten spot in the die and this would have showed up in the coins. But the rim area looks normal. Just a few die scratches to help with guys story. But the area would have been flat and not curved between the wheat stocks and the rim.

[drwstr123]

[Bob P]

I don't think here was a misunderstanding Mike. We know they didn't grind individual coins down. Even if the die was lapped, I don't see any way that could have been substantiated enough on this coin to make that claim. I still see no indication that this occurred. Either way, I don't know how the seller can make this claim either. Where is his proof that this is what happened here??

[drwstr123]

Hi Bob, "We know they didn't grind individual coins down"- No, I can't picture a room full of people with Dremels taking off VDBs. I had this coin for several years and no, I don't think $17.00 is over paying for it. I wasn't dropped off of a turnip truck either. The seller's story seems plausable to me, since there are heavier than normal "die polish" lines at that position. The rim also seems shallower there. I'd have to gain access to Mint records to persue this further, but I also am suprised at the overall dismissal by the collectors here. Is there another explaination for those striations? Have they been noticed on any other coins? It's just curious to me that here people marvel about things that can only be seen under 10X magnification or greater and non-chalently poo-poo this coin. Hope all is well with you and yours, Mike

[Bob P]

I hear ya Mike! Did they have Dremel's way back then?? I am taking a guess here, but the overall 'dismissal' by some collectors here may have to do with the fact that it is highly unlikely that what is claimed actually happened. You know I can't explain why those striations are there. You also must realize that the rim is made from an upstart mill. As far as it being a bit shallower, that could be from anything. I am also noting that the striations go up under the right wheat stem. I don't know why they would polish up there. There also seems to be little or no striations where I would expect the V to be. In addition, I would have expected heavier abrasions had the VDB actually been removed.
I didn't give you my opinion half cocked. I looked at the pics you sent, and at the info you provided. I actually spent quite a bit of time looking at them. I know a little bit about the minting process, but this is the first time I had heard this claim. I don't know where he got that info as I was unable to find anything about it. If you can find some evidence that they actually polished off the VDB reverse dies, I will gladly retract everything I have said. Otherwise, I revert to my initial answer to your post

[drwstr123]

PM sent

[wavysteps2003]

From what my understanding of this event, the working hubs were abraded (the VDB) until a new master die without the VDB was made. The working die, if the VDB had been removed, would have had a raised spot in that area if that was the way it had been accomplished.

This also goes for the supposed VDB found on a few of the satin proof 1910 Lincoln cents. Bill Fivaz has claimed to found a few of this, with the remnants of VDB on the reverse, however, ANACS and PCGS, upon examination of these coins has failed to confirm this fact.

The 1909 without the VDB was made from the master hub with the VDB abraded off, which in turn made the other dies and hubs for the rest of the year.

Off hand, from looking at your pictures of the reverse of the 1909 in question, the abrading lines appear to travel up along the right wheat ear stem and are not confined to the area where the VDB would have been. I do imagine that there are a few 1909 Linocoln cents that may show abrading in that area where the VDB was, however, I think that this is not one of them.

BJ Neff

[coop]

The reason for the die scratches in this area was no doubt to remove a die clash mark that appeared on the reverse between the wheat stems. This area you can see the outline of the head between the wheat stems. Thus the die scratches in this area.

The clash is marked onto the die, thus removal would remove just a little of the field in this area. To remove the VDB would take a lot more of the field area, leaving a raised area below the wheat stems and the rim. The rim being formed separately during the setup process, would be unaffected. The field would. So thus the scratches to cover a die clash would affect that area.

[Gabe]

The first thing I noticed about the coin was how nice the coin is.. also, great picture.

My opinion about this coin is that its just a plain 1909 cent. What appears to be a removed VDB is just wishful thinking. Our mind's can play trick on us, and if we look hard enough, Im sure we could see almost anything on that area in question.

[GarryN]

And maybe some one ground off the S mint mark too !

[drwstr123]

Oh! Look Garry, someone ground off my 'D':