non-variety

[Dick]

Bob, is there such a thing as a designated place for the MM? I have found ,(1960D) MM, that all "seem" to be in the same place, and upon closer scrutiny, are NOT. I find a D/D North in one variety, and compare it with another, (D/D South), to locate the spot where a "non-variety" would, or should be, just does not jive! My triangulation in becoming a "no-show", because no two "show" in the same place. I have used the DDO, MM locations, to check where a "normal" location might be, but even those are "varieties!. I understand they were punched by hand, and because of this, there is NO EXACT spot. So where do we "reference from? Without overlays, and without markers, I am working blind. With the new camera, and its associated application, I may be able to post some decent photos, and let "everyone else" do the work!
Any suggestions? Thanks,
An After thought: This is based a 4" reference from the outside of the "1", to the NEAR side of the "0", on the photo of the 1960D-1MM-086
If I use the ouitside, top of the "1", going at 60 degrees, I touch the tip of the tail of the "9".
Going the same way, but at 45 degrees, I touch the "curl of the "9", and bi-sect diagonally, a 1" square in the center of a 5" square.
Using the same square, and bi-secting diagonally from south to north, the line will touch the SE curve of the "6". THe MM will be spotted, dead-center in the 1" square. I'll try to post photos of this placeement.


bottom p[hoto from site. upper is an unknown from a scope/TV screen photo, to illustrate.
Dick

[eagames]

There is no exact spot, the regular non variety mintmark can move a lot.

The SLM method of ID for RPMs is a good method to ID them.

That means:

Step 1:
S (does it have sep? if not it's not a variety you're done. If it has notable sep does it match any variety? If yes go to step 2 if not you're done it could be an unlisted rpm see if any expert thinks it's listable)

Step-2:
L (does the location match the varieties that had similar sep, if it does proceed to step 3 if not it's not listed but it could be an unlisted variety you can send it to an expert and see if they can list it)

Step-3:
M (since the seperation and location matched look for the known markers, if they are there you're done it's that rpm. If the location and seperation were right but no markers matched it's either a new rpm or a different state of the known rpm, either note it might be rpm-x or send it for attribution and see if an attributor can tell.

As far as misplaced mintmarks go, that means it's way out of position like in the date or falling off the edge of the coin. Many normal mintmarks touch the date or are lower than most or far east or west and I've never seen anyone pay a premium for them.

[Dick]

ED, I think I have been mis-guided by the S-L-M. I thought the "separation", was from the date, the location with respect to the date, and obviously , the markers. With "my Method", I can place a MM in a specific location, and relate that to the date, by specific info, re the distances involved.
I NOW understand the "separation" is within the MM, proper. I have a lot of learning to absorb, yet, as you can see!
Note my last edit on last post. The photos are on a 3" base. You will see what I do, and how it relates, but to what? I have made a printout of some of the pages of the manual for the Ulead app, that came with the camera, and it says It can compare photos. I'm not sure if it is side-by-side, with possibilities of "overlapping", or not. That remains to be seen.
Dick

[eagames]

Dick,

You got it now separation is the separation between the primary and secondary mintmark. Location is with respect to the date.

Sometimes after understanding the terminolgy all of a sudden a lot of things make more sense.

What you did by looking at location will help, you can use it to see if the mintmark locations on your rpms match the listed ones so you can solve the "step 2" location above. The trick is your refferance location should be the known RPM that you think the coin might be, if it matches then look for markers SLM.
This is why people do overlays, just overlay it on the known RPM and see if it matches.

They thing is if they have good separation on the mintmarks but location or markers don't match anything you still might be finding new rpms, it only rules out the known ones.

[Bob P]

Dick,
It seems that Ed has taken care of a lot of the questions you asked. I can only reiterate what I said before concerning pre-1990 mintmarks. If they were somewhere under the date, then they were in an appropriate location. We know they were punched by hand, so we can also understand the differences in location...even under the date. I try to imaging if I had that job. What kind of various locations would I have made with such tiny tools and punches to work with. Knowing me, a suitable location for a mintmark punched by Bob would be anywhere on the front of the coin
I also see now what has been perplexing you over the past few weeks. I should have caught on to the location/separation point you were trying to make. Once you understand all of that, it is really quite simple...wouldn't you agree?

Thank you Ed for all your help on this one. I am not getting on line as often as before. The spring and summertime bring longer work days and a more tired Bob. Not only that, I get to watch the Red Sox play every game on the computer with the MLB pass I got this year. Can't complain too much about how they are doing so far this year.

[Dick]

ED, and Bob, Thank you both for your input. I just had a thought, that some one said,or maybe i had a "flash" in the brain that said the PROOF should be the best location for comparison for placement of the MM. Maybe I should have started there. Anyway, now that I know what is intended by "Separation, and Location, and Markers", I can go ahead and try to see the "separation". This is very unlikely, unless severe, because, even with 30X zoom on the scope, i still can't see much. I need "macroscope viewing, to "see" this difference, (my vision problem). I can tell an RPM without any tromble. Whether it is M/M N, E, S, W, or points in between., that is something else.. I seldom see the split serifs, unless it is so spread that I stumble, and fall into it. BTW, BOB, you can "follow the game and still enjoy the game without the charge they make. Just click on "gameday", and you get a "play-by-play", but none of the visualaction. I do that with the D'Backs, and watch the Dodgers LOSE, as many games as possible, live, because I get that coverage on the local TV channels, and FSN. Part of my satellite viewing. That is what I enjoy, like the LAA's sweeping the LAD's!
ED, the location is what I usually do with the photos on the site, but when there are no markers, then I have to resort to some other way. That is where the triangulation came in, but there are so many that are within 1/8" of another, that is is very difficult to be sure. As I said, I don't have "overlay" capability, yet, and I'm not sure where I would get the one to use for my bottom image, unless it was taken from the site, and then compared with the O/L I am going to see if the ULead application will help. That is not to say that I have abandoned Coop's "overlay" info, which I have, but as yet don't know how to use the Photoshop. I need more hours in the day, and a ton more brains!
Thanks for ypur help, and input.
Dick

[coop]

I found the separation and location seeming to match. But looking closer at the separation the second time, the shift could be very slightly different than first examined. So if may be a North RPM, but the location may seem close, but then you not that the North is farther or closer to the main mintmark. So separation has to be looked at a second time, not for just direction, but how much of a separation. Locations on some years may look very, very close to each other, then you need the second look at the separtion of a RPM or second RPM as on tilted/rotated coins. The only looking closer the second time may you not that the separation is slightly different, rotated or in a different direction.

When comparing RPMs from the RPM book, you may note that the location of the RPM/MM is a certain distance from the numbers in the date. But this can be deceiving. If the image of your coin or the one is the book is different, your eye can see it as different. Thus the overlays help after you straighten both images to the exact plane. I usually take the outside edge of the first and last digit as a cropping point. If you don't have that much of an image on one, crop them both from the same horizonal line at the top and crop and size them equally. Then you can do an overlay or grid of both images and see where the line match up to over images fall. Again exact same sizes of numbers of the date must be matched, before you try matching locations.

[Dick]

Coop, the separation will be where I have the most trouble with the Identification, because I can't see the difference that well. That is why, (like the case of the 1960D series, where there are so many varieties), I am making a list of all the ones that have the photos, and marker photos avaiable. That way I can compare the known, with the unknown, and eliminate the rest. Among those likely to be the one, I can eliminate more by the measurements, AND other info there. If all else fails, then I can post it, and maybe someone will ID it as a known, or unknown. I don't have the RPM book, but I have several others, but they give only a photo, and maybe a PUP, but that does me very little, or no good. I did get three possibles, yesterday, before I decided it would be much easier, and faster to have a list. I have the info in this manner: !. MM location, IE, above, even, below tail of "9". 1MM-NUM. 2. Nomenclature, and baseis of measurements. 3. A, Outside top of "1" to bottom of MM. B, Distance from top of MM, to tail of "9". C, Bottom of MM to nearest point of "6". D, Distance from base of MM to nearset point of "0". This "should" rule out 99% of the errors, (and make my work easier)! In the case of one that matches most markers, or in the case of the state not matching any markers, then it gets a "?". I have lots of those! Still working on therst.
Dick