Shifted Date

creilly · Veteran Member

I dont know if this goes here or where but I have a question.
I often read about a VAM with a date shifted to the right or the left. HOW DOES ONE TELL? Can some one tell me the difference between the dates on these 2 coins? Or if there is no difference? Aww and if you are a morgan lover you can guess one is a 1897 P Pitted Reverse and the other is PCGS Mint State 66 1897 P... one would assume a normal placed date. Hence the question of 1A vs. 6A on the VAM of the pitted reverse. I know the 1A is a myth but how does one tell if the date is shifted or not slightly to the left? While I do not pretend to have a 1A VAM, I can not find any info to show me a "Normal" placed date to compair it too. On any coins pennies morgan what ever. This compairison is just what I currently have pictures of to compair coins for my question.

Dick · Expert Member

Cathy, I don't have the most modern equipment to check, but by checking with a grid, I find NO difference in placement. Hope this answers your question. Keep in mind that dates were hand punched, many years ago, and may, or may not be the case with the Morgans, (and others).
Dick

creilly · Veteran Member

Dick, IF the Date on my VAM 6a reverse pitted is in fact in the normal position than it would in fact be a 1A "The Myth" I have compaired.. measured and grid the coins in question..I too find no difference. Problem is how to be sure and then prove it. It is of course just a pipe dream. and normally this coin would already be up for sale however on the pitting on the RX is very much different than to other 6A's I have seen Thus I have cause to hold on to the coin and dream.

Dick · Expert Member

Cathy, I would "sit on it" for a while. It won't go down much, if any, and it will give you a chance to get further opinions. I'm sure there are many with a great deal more experience, than I.
Dick

creilly · Veteran Member

You late nighter you!!! I know my vast 20 minutes of knowledge in the coin world has left me lacking. Some times Im smack dead on and others I am so far off its scary. Sometimes its hard to belive I am looking at the same coin as others.

Know anyone who might be able to help me identify this?

smed · Senior Member

Have you seen this VAM site?

http://vamworld.wikispaces.com/

creilly · Veteran Member

Oh yeah I use that site a lot! here is what they say:
The 1897 VAM-1A and VAM-6A feature the same distinctively pitted reverse. No VAM-1A coins are currently known to exist. With thousands of eyes seeking this coin over the last 10 years since the publishing of the Top 100 book, it is almost certain that the VAM-1A does not exist. The listed difference between the VAM-1A and the VAM-6A is the placement of the date, which is further to the left for the VAM-6A and "normal" for the VAM-1A.
But they give no examples of th front of the coin... What Where and how can you tell a NORMAL date?
How can I look at my coin and say that date is MOVED slightly to the left? Further more how can a grading service?

I am not arguing that I think my coin is a 1A.. I know its not but I dont know how to tell that the date is shifted.

aballein · Veteran Member

if you would like i can link this page over the the collectors universe forums...LOTS of Morgan VAM guys over there that could probably help you out. Some more pics would be nice, maybe of the reverse of your coin.

eagames · Expert Member

Cathy,

If you can do an overlay that will show the placement.

If you can't do overlays you might try what I do, (cheapo overlay) get 2 photos the same size then crop one right through the date horizontaly then paste it over the other one, slide it until the rim lines up then you can see how the dates line up.

I do that with mintmarks but crop them verticaly.

aballein · Veteran Member

From Wolf359 on the collectors universe forums

Big VAM Book Page 115 explains date placement.

Basically, draw a line down from the neck into the denticles. Then count...

The third denticle from the neck is normal. Left of that is a near date. The 1897 she shows is two denticles from the neck, so it's a near date. Anything under 2 denticles is considered a very near date. 4th denticle - far date (shifted right), and 4-1/2 denticles or so is a "very far date".

Everything here is approximate, refer to the actual diagram on page 115 of the Big VAM book.

creilly · Veteran Member

Thank you for that answer... make so much sense. I only have the VAM keys the little book... I will have to go get a big book.. Thank you thank you

Dick · Expert Member

Aaron, it is odd that you use the neck for a reference, but that is what I do, and then use a grid to locate position!. I hadn't thought of counting the denticles. I don't have that many Morgans, so it is not a problem. I don't do "overlays", either, on the cents. Instead I use the grid. It gives good location, BUT does NOT verify that the MM is what is shown on site! Thanks for your info.
Dick

aballein · Veteran Member

yeah the guys and gals on the collectors universe forums (PGCS sponsored) are really intelligent when it comes to every kind of coin. Ive seen Chuck post over there quite a few times...as a matter of fact thats how i found this website. I would reccomend that yall check it out and sign up, you learn something new everyday over there.http://forums.collectors.com/

eagames · Expert Member

Yep, maybe that's why it's so quiet over here Wink

I did see your post on this over there.

coop · Expert Member

Cathy: See if your camera is set on the "Solarize" setting? The color in the second image looks like it is. I've seen other images of yours and they appear the same. So check to see if this is selected. Choose normal then you should get better images. Hope this helps.