Presidential Dollar thread.

[notabot]

This is the thread for Presidential Dollars (they are 70 percent copper, so I feel like it's a good Idea for a dedicated thread).

Uncirculated Washingtons have as primary errors the plain edge without incuse letters, with small quantities of scammers on Ebay shaving the coin. A doctored coin is easily discernable by a different texture and can be weighed for authentication. The incuse lettering orientation is a minor variety, with the letters being readable with the heads side up, and with the tails side up. Quantities of both seem evenly distributed. The mint reports there may be as many as 75,000 of the plain edge Washingtons, so sale prices plummeted after this news release.

Adams dollars are reported with missing incuse, though in far lesser quantities. There are reports of doubling incuse, and several other spacing errors. There are reportedly lesser quantities of Adams uncirculated. The Adams plain edge is selling in excess of 500 dollars on Ebay, and the doubled lettering is selling for over 100.
There are known differences in the incuse lettering font, which some readers attribute to wear in the die, while others believe it is proof font on the uncirculated dollar. I have yet to open my proof boxes to find out, so anyone can weigh in on this if you care to.
The grades on these coins are problematic, to say the least. Many first day covers came back as MS66, and scant few were 67. With the coins being heaped in trash bins (called a Hop), we can only guess what mint supervisors are targeting as an acceptable aesthetic level for their principle moneymaker for the next decade.

The proof sets are selling briskly, but early purchasers may be hostage to their compunction to "buy now". If you have unopened boxes dated before August 3, 2007, NGC will certify it as an early release proof. However, Shop at Home (SAH) bought a thousand of these sets, and few graded out at PF 70. The read I got was that 7 percent were grading at this rate, but the earliest batch of 1000 from SAH were lesser. One set sold on EBAY for over 3,000. Pretty heady prices, with so many to be produced. The Next batch of 5,000 sets for SAH were what they used for the 7 percent comment. So while you have an early release in a sealed box, you may get a lesser coin than one purchased currently, which is somewhat disconcerting to US Mint loyalists. Early release used to mean better strike, as I recall.

The good news is that you still have until a week from now I'd guess to place an order, get a higher grade coin, and still get an early release certifiable box (if you are a gambler).

Buying 100 sets is 1,600 bucks, and if 7 grade out at proof 70, you can still make money and pigeon-hole the rest for next year when the "oh cripe, I missed the proof sets" folks come around. And they have lots of time, with a multi-year run in the offing.

These are the us mint production figures on the uncirculated so far:

http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/coin_production/index.cfm?action=production_figures&presYear=2007#starthere

And this is the Numismatic News report for Proofs:

"The initial figure is 616,056, which shows a strong collector drive to add the coins to their collections".

Enjoy!!!

[notabot]

It appears a bona-fide proof DDO is now known, the first being sold for 800+ dollars, I looked at all the pics, and it does appear to be a DDO:

http://cgi.ebay.com/2007-S-MADISON-PROOF-PRESIDENTIAL-DOLLAR-DOUBLED-DIE_W0QQitemZ140137606911QQihZ004QQcategoryZ524QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

[eagames]

Looks like it's strike doubling not a DDO to me.

[notabot]

After I went to school on the differences, I agree with you, Ed. This is not a true DDO, but strike doubling. Thank you for keen eyes and a wealth of expertise!!!
Too bad for the 800 dollar buyers!!!

[Steven]

I don't know much about the $1. coins but would that be "DDR" if it accually was one???
Steven

[eagames]

Yea we mean DDR

In this case I think the seller thinks it's a double die but it looks like it's not by comparing the 2 coins.

Doubled dies are identical except for the markers and die state since the doubling is on the die not from when the coin was struck but strike doubles are each slightly different in magnitude or shift.

On the 1st one it shows well on the torch and not on the top most of the 3 fingers and the other side of the hand is different.

On the second one it's less and different on the torch and it shows well on the top most finger.


1st one sold:
http://cgi.ebay.com/MADISON-PROOF-PRESIDENTIAL-DOLLAR-DOUBLED-DIE-REVERSE_W0QQitemZ140133503389QQihZ004QQcategoryZ524QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

2nd one being sold:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2007-S-MADISON-PROOF-PRESIDENTIAL-DOLLAR-DOUBLED-DIE_W0QQitemZ140137606911QQihZ004QQcategoryZ524QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[notabot]

Who has noticed that I cannot make heads or tails of this matter!!!

[notabot]

Regards to Steven .

[Dick]

Not to worry.... I checked and it appears to be MD, or strike doubling. I would NOT buy this coin for more than $1.00, and actually get rid of everyone that comes to me. I just don't care for them. I like a thing of beauty, and the new dollars just don't qualify, No offense meant, or intended to anyone. It is just MHO.
Dick

[Bob P]

The coins being auctioned are definitely NOT doubled dies. What they are is either one of two things. It seems to me that it is nothing more than mechanical doubling. Proof coins are normally struck more than once to get the greatest detail. The only other possibility for the doubling as shown is a double struck in collar error, and I am not too keen on calling it that. Either way, the one thing I do know is that it does not show the characteristics of a doubled die.

[notabot]

Numisatic News is reporting that there is a difference between the uncirculated and Proof Presidential dollar incuse. I noticed these later than other members of the community, and my guess was that the variety was the proof being used on the uncirculated dollars. The inside of the letters looks like a laser cut of some sort, surrounded by a thin rim.
The surface area outside the lettering looks to be a knurling process, which is basically a wheel with a textured surface is placed with force against the coin while it is rolled one revolution.
I noticed varying levels of depth in the knurling process, with some examples very faint, and others very pronounced.
Supplementally, the knurled texture appears on both the laser incuse and uncirculated incuse.
That leaves us with:

(A)Uncirculated w/uncirculated incuse, uncirculated rim, type one (letters upright) type two (letters inverted)
(B) Uncirculated w/ uncirculated incuse, proof rim, (types one and two)
(C)Uncirculated w/proof incuse, uncirculated rim, type and two.
(D)Uncirculated w/proof incuse, proof rim, types one and two.

Further, some of the double die incuse examples show BOTH the uncirculated and proof incuse, and the letters are both upright, and inverted.

That makes a gumpstump level of veriety in the Adams, with the missing edge letters tossed in for good measure.

The mint is holding their cards close to the vest, and will not confirm the Proof process, because of all the problems that invites into our hobby.

I cannot envision the scenario wherein proof letters get on uncirculated specimens. It will be interesting to read the digression.

With respect to other reader posts on the thread, I am grateful to all participants, and am thankful members debunked the double-die myth. Lots of people get clipped on EBAY, and if the Mint gets the word on these matters from us, thats good for us, and lends us some "I-Prestige", if you will.
This site is the most valuable information source on copper coins outside the U.S. Mint, and we are all dedicated to it for only one reason, that we love to collect coins.

[notabot]

There is an excellent previous post on the board about Presidential dollars, and as a new member, I had not yet read it.
Apparently the surface is not knurled, which is what I noted on a previous post, but edge laser etching.
Regards to the senior member and the other post getting bumped so I could see it. I'll try and do some serious reading to gather expertise on coins, as I have lots of learning ahead, based on the depth of comment on the board.
And I'll read more fully before commenting on items which have already been covered prevously.
Thanks for reading.

[eagames]

Great summary of the dollars.

The only things I'd add are that the double struck edge letters are not double dies, they're fully double struck with the 3rd die (edge die or whatever they should be called). Still neat and worth collecting but not in any way a double die. It would be neat if there were double die edge letters but that's one variety nobody has found yet.

The 2 lettering types are still unknown, it may just be 2 die states of the edge lettering die. It may never be known if it relates to proof or bus strike lettering, I doubt the mint will say either way.

I think John Wexler has listed 3 double dies that are all DDR GWs, all 3 varieties show doubling where the spikes from the statues head spikes intersect the arm. These are minor doubled dies and other experts might not list them but they are listed by Wexler.

ideas:

I have an idea about the double lettering on Adams dollars, it might be that the mint took so much flak over no letter GWs that they sampled some Adams coins and if they found missing letters ran them through again and ones that already had lettering got double struck lettering. This brings the question: Are there more double struck edge letter Adams than GWs

I'm still wondering about the smooth edge GWs. The planchets are clad not plated, they have a solid copper center. On the D mint smooth ones I've seen they don't show the copper center on the edge (unless you look very close). On the P mint smooth ones they do show the copper. Early in the discoveries people said if you see the copper it's faked but it's not true and every P mint smooth edge GW I saw has copper clad showing and 2 of mine were graded by TPGs and both showed the copper clad edge. The fake ones have marks from the lettering being shaved off and they show the copper center. The real ones only have marks in the direction of the plan being cut but P show copper and D don't. I do have an idea but it's a guess, since these are clad they all start out showing copper but the machine that letters the edge rolls along the edge and it mixes/flattens the edge and hides the clad copper. It might be that most of the D mint coins went through the edge letter machine but never got lettered (so the clad doesn't show) but the P mint smooth edge coins never went through the lettering machines at all. There may be ones that don't follow these rules (D smooth showing clad) or (P smooth that does not show clad) but I haven't seen any.

Any ideas on the clad edges

[wavysteps2003]

I just looked at the auctions for this supposed doubled die and with the pictures being of such poor quality it is a wonder that anything could be made out.

I am aware that John Wexler has attributed and listed one Presidental dollar type (not to sure which one), however, I do believe that it was a business strike.

Back to the auction. Seems that this find, the DDR, is unattributed by an expert in the field. I am sure that if it had been, that name would have appeared in the write up. There have been no reports of such in Numismatic News or Coin World. Couple all this with the poor pictures in the auction and the mis-attribution, it spells disaster for those people who are foolish enough to bid, even more so for those who won.

Granted, there will be some numeric value to this anomaly, however, it will not approach what has been paid in the auction.

Education, education, education is the KEY word here. Know what you are looking at; if possible have it verified, if it is not, for what it is and after that, always use caution when you do buy for anyone or any place.

By the way, I do like this thread on the new dollars. There are more than a few VERIFIED errors occurring, which makes this an interesting series. With the odd die clashes, assorted die cracks and other anomlies, we may even see some attempt to establish some sort of VAM system, but who knows.

Thanks for the inputs on the Presidental dollars.

BJ Neff

[notabot]

If you find a source for the Adams rolls with the different incuse and laser etching, you may want to buy some. The reason is that with these rolls, I noted the quality of the strikes is greater. And I may just be seeing a limited batch of some better coins, but I believe I saw 67 consistantly among the varieties. Not just a few, but many. I think that maybe there was some route other than the great big ol' "mark-maker" hoppers the mint calls shipping containers.
The proof lettering, if that is what this is, would have to be a diversion process, with quantities appearing in the proof process as if by magic.
That's the only way it gets there.

Thanks to senior member for including the double pressed edge lettering, which needed to be in here somewhere.
It will probably be much later before we see accurate numbers on the plain edge Adams, I agree.