1999D Lincoln cent, double struck in collar
Goto page 1, 2 Next |
  |
| Author |
Message |
wavysteps2003Expert Member
Posts: 1344
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
|
|
 Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:20 pm |
 |
|
I, as a rule, shy away from error coins for my knoweldge is lacking on the finer points of telling what is real and what is not. However, this one, which I found today, is just to great not to share with you all.
The rotation between the first strike to the second strike is 70 degrees.
If it is one of those "errors" that has been altered outside of the mint, oh well, it was free and will go into my collection of forgeries.
BJ Neff
_________________
Member of: Coppercoins, ANA, CFCC (VP), CONECA, FUN, NCADD (Editor), NLG, LCR, traildies.com. and MADdieclashes.com
The opinions that I express do not necessarily reflect the policies of the organizations that I am a member of.
|
|
|
|
|
 |
 DickExpert Member
Posts: 5780
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Location: Rialto, CA.
|
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:03 pm |
|
|
BJ, I don't think there has ever been an obv/obv, or rev/rev clash, other than in someones garage! And definitely not with two different dates, on the same coin! I believe the two dates may be a result of the photo of an overlay, right? The statue is in a place that should have gotten some "end-result", but shows very little if any damage. I get the imperssion that the "dirty deed" was perpetuated from the obverse side, (like with a sledge hammer)! You say they were free? You got a bargan! LOL
Dick
_________________
" Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before".
|
|
|
|
|
|
 eagamesExpert Member
Posts: 3013
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
|
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:14 pm |
|
|
It's just one coin right?
Second image is an overlay to show the rotation?
On the coin you can only see one date 1999-D right?
Since the image is not mirrored if it was fake it would need to be one of those coins re-struck with soft dies but most of those fakes are one sided errors.
I don't see anything that looks fake about it, I'd think it may be a real struck twice in the collar with rotation.
What do you think BJ? 
_________________
Ed
|
|
|
|
|
|
DickExpert Member
Posts: 5780
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Location: Rialto, CA.
|
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:37 pm |
|
|
BJ, I had the impression that the coin was a fake, because of the difference in the images, obv, and rev. The obv, is quite clear, but the memorial looks like it had been hit, off-centered, and left only a partial impression, by comparison. If I am wrong, and usually am, I hope you have a genuine "Double-struck-in collar" which would make it a desired coin. Then again, how would it get struck, a second time if there is no brokage, which would happen if my idea as to the minting process, is correct. My idea is with the next planchet being fed in. What happens then?
Dick
_________________
" Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before".
|
|
|
|
|
|
wavysteps2003Expert Member
Posts: 1344
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
|
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:38 pm |
|
|
The double struck is the 1999D; I used a 2002D for the overlay just to show the position of the second strike.
Speaking of the statue on the reverse, you can see part of it (the second strike) in column # 7. You also can see part of the T in CENT (second strike) in the E of ONE.
If you look at the obverse, you will see a second rim from IN to past LIBERTY. Even the obverse to reverse second strike line up perfectly. My only doubt that this is authentic double strike is that it may have been made with a "soft die". If it is, then they did a very good job.
BJ Neff
_________________
Member of: Coppercoins, ANA, CFCC (VP), CONECA, FUN, NCADD (Editor), NLG, LCR, traildies.com. and MADdieclashes.com
The opinions that I express do not necessarily reflect the policies of the organizations that I am a member of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
eagamesExpert Member
Posts: 3013
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
|
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:54 pm |
|
|
I think it's real, the only explanation for a fake would be soft dies and every one I have seen was only done on one side and damaged on the other. This one has the same rotation on both sides.
_________________
Ed
|
|
|
|
|
|
DickExpert Member
Posts: 5780
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Location: Rialto, CA.
|
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:22 pm |
|
|
I am going to go along with you both, and hope it is authentic!
I will question where I think there might be room., but when the doubt is removed, then it is time to concede! That coin should make someones day!
Dick
_________________
" Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before".
|
|
|
|
|
|
wavysteps2003Expert Member
Posts: 1344
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
|
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:11 am |
|
|
Talked to Mike Diamond last night, who by the way, did a great article on a faked double strike (can be seen in the CONECA web page under ERRORSCOPE supplement). He believes it to be real and a bit unusual, so the coin is off to him for his expert analysis. Will let you all know what his conclusions are.
BJ Neff
_________________
Member of: Coppercoins, ANA, CFCC (VP), CONECA, FUN, NCADD (Editor), NLG, LCR, traildies.com. and MADdieclashes.com
The opinions that I express do not necessarily reflect the policies of the organizations that I am a member of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
wavysteps2003Expert Member
Posts: 1344
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
|
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:38 pm |
|
|
Well folks, the verdict is in. Mike Diamond has authenticated this error as the real thing.
A word of caution though, watch out for those coins that have been manipulated with a soft die. Believe me, they are out there.
BJ Neff
_________________
Member of: Coppercoins, ANA, CFCC (VP), CONECA, FUN, NCADD (Editor), NLG, LCR, traildies.com. and MADdieclashes.com
The opinions that I express do not necessarily reflect the policies of the organizations that I am a member of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
DickExpert Member
Posts: 5780
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Location: Rialto, CA.
|
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:56 pm |
|
|
Nice going, BJ! I'm glad it turned out to be real. Congrats on a nice find.
Dick
_________________
" Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before".
|
|
|
|
|
|
wavysteps2003Expert Member
Posts: 1344
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
|
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:14 pm |
|
|
Thanks Dick. BJ
_________________
Member of: Coppercoins, ANA, CFCC (VP), CONECA, FUN, NCADD (Editor), NLG, LCR, traildies.com. and MADdieclashes.com
The opinions that I express do not necessarily reflect the policies of the organizations that I am a member of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
 coppercoinsSite Admin
Posts: 2809
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Location: Springfield, Missouri.
|
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:33 am |
|
|
I could see from the photos that the coin was definitely a real double struck. I've found a couple of these over the years, although not nearly as dramatic as this one. Very nice find for face value. I'd say it's at least a $50 coin.
_________________
C. D. Daughtrey
owner, developer
www.coppercoins.com
cd@coppercoins.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
mikediamondAdvanced Member
Posts: 191
Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Location: Western Illinois
|
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:46 pm |
|
|
This is not your everyday in-collar double strike. The second strike was very weak as the result of insufficient die approximation. In other words, something interfered with the approach of the dies to each other so that they made only slight contact with the coin's surface.
_________________
President of CONECA; Host of Error Coin Information Exchange (Yahoo:Groups). Opinions rendered do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
coppercoinsSite Admin
Posts: 2809
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Location: Springfield, Missouri.
|
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:52 pm |
|
|
Hi Mike....What supporting evidence do you have to make the statement you did? I'm trying to learn from this experience and need to ask questions to better understand your position.
What I see is either an incomplete strike topped by a complete strike, which would support your view, or a complete first strike followed by a heavy second strike that obliterated most of the first strike's details. How can you tell the difference?
Second, how does insufficient die approximation occur? was this a feeder finger in the way? A die trial strike? Possibly an adjustment strike that took two hits to get right? Maybe a loose fitting that failed to tighten the die properly AND a broken feeder finger. First strike didn't come down all the way, the coin raised out of the die on the cam, failed to sweep aside, and was struck again...
So give us your opinion on what you think the story of this coin is...
_________________
C. D. Daughtrey
owner, developer
www.coppercoins.com
cd@coppercoins.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
mikediamondAdvanced Member
Posts: 191
Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Location: Western Illinois
|
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:56 am |
|
|
| coppercoins wrote: |
Hi Mike....What supporting evidence do you have to make the statement you did? I'm trying to learn from this experience and need to ask questions to better understand your position.
What I see is either an incomplete strike topped by a complete strike, which would support your view, or a complete first strike followed by a heavy second strike that obliterated most of the first strike's details. How can you tell the difference? |
It's neither an "incomplete strike topped by a complete strike", nor a "complete strike followed by a heavy second strike". It's a complete strike followed by an incomplete (i.e. weak) strike.
If it was an incomplete (i.e. weak) strike followed by a complete strike, then evidence of the former would be pretty much obliterated. If any did persist, then it would be flattened. None of the design elements belonging to the incomplete strike are flattened.
If it was a complete strike followed by a heavy second strike (i.e. a typical in-collar double-strike) then you'd find flattened first-strike design elements elsewhere on the coin.
We can tell it was a normal normal first strike followed by an incomplete (weak) strike because there are no other design elements present apart from the partial head and the right side of the Memorial. We find that the normal head is flattened by contact with the field portion of the die during the second strike. Additionally, the right side of the Memorial appears mainly in the field. This should have been obliterated if this represented the first strike. The reason it shows up here, as pointed out by Tom DeLory, is that it lies opposite the normal head of Lincoln, which makes this the thickest part of the coin.
| coppercoins wrote: |
Second, how does insufficient die approximation occur? was this a feeder finger in the way? A die trial strike? Possibly an adjustment strike that took two hits to get right? Maybe a loose fitting that failed to tighten the die properly AND a broken feeder finger. First strike didn't come down all the way, the coin raised out of the die on the cam, failed to sweep aside, and was struck again...
So give us your opinion on what you think the story of this coin is... |
There is no way to determine the ultimate cause behind the failure of the dies to approach each other closely enough. A "die trial" is highly unlikely, as is an intentional press shutdown. Most weak strikes appear to be the result of spontaneous equipment malfunction. It could be some sort of jam-up in an adjacent striking chamber, a broken knuckle joint, a loose press frame, a broken circuit breaker, a mistimed cam beneath the anvil die -- anything's possible. All I can say is that such malfunctions can occur suddenly and are sometimes self-correcting. You can find weak strikes followed immediately by strong strikes and vice versa. I even have a triple-struck quarter struck by the same die pair in which the first strike was normal, the second very weak, and the third unusually strong. Sometimes the weak strike is struck by the same die pair and sometimes by a different (adjacent?) die pair. You can find saddle strikes where one strike is strong and the other weak. The combinations are infinite. I've found weak strikes in combination with a wide range of striking errors -- off-center strikes, misaligned die, rotated die, double-strike, triple-strike, saddle strike, capped die strike, brockage, indent, etc., etc.
_________________
President of CONECA; Host of Error Coin Information Exchange (Yahoo:Groups). Opinions rendered do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Page 1 of 2 |
Goto page 1, 2 Next |
|
