2007 Silver Eagle... question.. Machine or real DD?

[creilly]

So I am assuming the 2007 SE's are really new. I got this one FREE at the VFW. Women as they entered got to stick their hand in a bag and pull out a prize... I got this. I cringed when I pulled it out and the guy shook the bag really really hard for the next lady... mine has a few bag marks thanks to him, I am sure, but Hect it was 1 FREE OZ of SILVER!!!

Machine or DD?

[Dick]

Nice job, Cathy! Some people step in ...., and come out smelling like a rose. You seem to be one of them!. That looks like MD, and if you chesk the heel, snd sole areas of the right foot, you may see some die cracks. Not always, but on several of those I have, the cracks are there.
Again, nice grab!
BTW, I went thru a couple boxes of half dollars. Nothing there except for a 1967-D in AU50, and a 1968-D , BU. MS 63 I believe might be the grade. Nothing before 1971, otherwise. I was hoping for something else, but It didn't work out that way. I'll get a couple more boxes, and if they don't show a change in material, I'll go back to the quarters. I still need several rolls to fill out all the states with rolls. Then I will "try" to get all the "P"'s, even if only one, (coin). It would be pretty rough trying for the "P" rolls for all of them!
Dick

[notabot]

I purchased the ANACS population report from 2005, and it lists Eagles, both the uncirculated and proof, as being very thin in the double die department. When the proof eagles came out in 1986, I was on the phone ten minutes before ordering began, and when I was placing my order, the female attendant stated that I was the first call. So when I took my two 50 eagle proofs to the Baltimore show last year, I was very excited. The quality of the coins was lesser, but I saw doubling on both. ICG graded the coins (HAS THE LAUGHTER SUBSIDED YET?), because I wanted to keep them in my possession and they were cheap. I am cheap too, so it worked out well for me. When they brought the coins back I was mortified. The ICG said they were machine doubling only, and that takes me back to the 2007 Eagle in this post. I have about four that look like what board members regard as machine doubling, all from other years. Is machine doubling not considered doubling...I mean there are TWO IMAGES, and it seems to me that at some point the collecting community would have to surrender and call them double dies, but perhaps with an asterisk denoting it as a lesser double die. Maybe a senior member could just purge the entire context of their knowledge of the two types of double dies, so that I can feel more comfortable deciding on when a purchase is a good one or just a waste of money.

[eagames]

I'll try the simple answer.

They could be called a coin with doubling but shouldn't include the word die when describing a strike or mechanical doubled coin. The mechanical or strike doubled coins aren't double dies.

The reason we call coins double dies is the die (the mold) was doubled. The doubled die strikes a planchet ONE time and makes a double image and every coin made with that doubled die is an identical double die coin. There are 9 types of double dies, the types are based on how the doubled die/mold got made with doubling so any marker or defect on that die with the doubling will show on each coin it strikes. We call the multiple coins from each double die a given variety and assign a number because each from a given variety came from it's specific die so there is a set population of each. There is no such thing as being like or similar, each coin is the same variety. There is no error in striking double die coins, the error was made when they made the doubled die/mold so doubled die coins are varieties not errors. They have a value based on the interest of the doubling and the population of the specific double die it is.

A strike doubled or mechanical doubled coin isn't made by a doubled die, it's struck by a non doubled die and the die bounces and damages the coin on the SECOND hit or as the coin ejects it scrapes the die. Because of this each coin is different (if you look close) and there can be coins with similar strike doubling from any die and the doubling might look similar but the markers are different. No strike double has a "book" value because each is uniqely damaged and since they came from many dies and no coins have exactly the same doubling nobody can catalog them and there is no poulation since each is unique. They aren't varieties they are unique minor errors. Unless somebody likes the coin it has no extra value. Often we see strike doubles sold from a year where a real double die exists and it sells to a newbie that thinks it's a real double die but someday they try to sell it or get it attributed as a double die and they learn that they got ripped off. It might seem like a small differance but it means everything. Something great or nothing of value

If you want to see the 9 types of doubled dies see this thread:
http://www.coppercoins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2098

[Dick]

Notabot, I would add to ED's comments in that the MACHINE DOUBLING is very characteristic, in that is has a very noticable flat area next to the rest of the impression, and it tends to give the impression that it is doubled. The first thing one looks for is the appearance of the "sic, doubling, to see if there are "split serifs. They are very hard to see, at times, but they are a
definite indication of DIE DOUBLING, as opposed to Machine Doubling. If you have the red book, most any year, or the Cherrypickers Guide, You will have a chance to compare the different types of doubling, and also take a test on them to see for yourself, how you did. It takes time!!!, And good eyes, as well. I still get mistaken, at times, so don't give up the ship!

Later: Another thing about Machine, or shelf doubling, etc. The "Die doubling" will cause, in most cases a "wider" letter, or number than does the MD, because it does change the width, whereas the Mechanical doubling leaves the letter, or number in the normal width. BJ?
Dick

[eagames]

Dicks point is a good one.

One of the things about strike/mechanical doubles is that the second image is made from smeared metal from the first image so the first image is missing part of it.

As Dick said that second image is often flat and the normal image is missing part of the metal where the metal maling the second image was smeared.

What we say makes sense with most types of real doubled dies but other types don't have a second image, some of them just have a shift that makes the initial image wider. That is why it's good to try to understand the 9 classes that exist.

Think of the analogy that cut glass looks similar to diamond, fools gold looks looks similar to real gold but are totaly different in value.

[creilly]

well I was thinking Machine but the notching on th two looks strange....

[eagames]

The 2 notching looks MD because on the lower part of it the shift is huge, the notched part is so far up from the base (shifted far north) so if it was a double die I would expect the top should be shifted the same amount but the top is much less. So that plus how it looks shelf like makes me think it probably is MD.

[Dick]

Cathy,The bottom of the "2" is a dead giveaway. Notice how the right hand areas are
"smoothly" connected together? They would have a definite separation if it were doubled, rather than "shoved" the the south. Hope this helped.
Dick

[MaryJF]

Ok, so I'm just getting around to reading this. You all KNOW I've been busy lately. It's almost over, by the way. Son in Law is expected to be here in Albany on the 12th. YIPPEE and BOO HOO. I can't even remember how long they've been here. The brain is definitely fried. However, I DO remember there was snow on the ground.

I was wondering about Cathy's coin since I just photo'd something that looks very similar to hers the other day. I'm sure this one's mechanical also, but it looks like it's been struck more than once. Hmmm.. a triple die?? Wouldn't that be nice!!! Ok, I'm dreaming here.

I'm sending an "album" of 12 photos. Just keep clicking "next" to the left of the picture or you can hit the "view album" button to see them all.

http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h253/MaryJF/2007%20W%20unc/?action=view&current=23.jpg

[GarryN]

Very nice Mary, Thanks!