| Author |
Message |
 CPMember
Posts: 59
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Location: US
|
|
 Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:13 pm |
 |
|
Confusing to me.! How does the doubling on the 1 and 9 of die variety 1955D-1DO-001 Class 3 differ from a mechanical strike?
Ditto for the MOTTO on die variety 1955P-1DO-002
CLASS 2 + 5..
Thanks,CP
|
|
|
|
|
 |
 StevenExpert Member
Posts: 1298
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: S/E Missouri
|
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:12 pm |
|
|
Some of the following information may help with your question.
Steven
http://www.coppercoins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2098&highlight=
http://hermes.csd.net/~coneca/content/glossary.html
Reference Machine Doubling
Ed said,
| Quote: |
The classes being reffered to here are the classes of real doubled dies. They would be:
(hey someone might correct me or add to this, I'm still learning or trying to as I look for these real ones)
Class 1 is rotated hub doubling
(die rotated between hubbings making doubling)
Class 2 is distorted hub doubling
(the hub used was in a different condition from one hubbing to another or a totaly different hub so if it was older the older hubs image may be pushed out further toward the rim than the newer hubs image so you see spread to the rim)
Class 3 is design hub doubling
(in some years they had 2 designs like 1970-S large and small date or 1960 large and small so if one hub was different in design you get both different designs)
Class 4 is offset hub doubling
(this would be where the die shifted between hubbings not rotated, maybe up-down-side so you see 2 images shifted not only rotated.)
Class 5 is pivoted hub doubling
(like class one but it rotated on a pivot point other than the center, you might see doubling strong far from the pivot point but not much at the pivot point.)
Class 6 is distended hub doubling
(these are ones where the letters are fat, it might be that the die was treated in some way thermaly maybe causing expansion so when hubbed over another image it just looks fat. I'm not sure this is the only reason for this class, some seem to bend making the letters like the spines of letters look bent so there must be more to it than expansion.)
Class 7 modified hub doubling
(I'm just guessing this one, maybe they changed something like the large to small date or date position and ground away one date then made a modified one so you see a trace of the other... I don't see why it would be called doubled since it's modified and to me it looks like they did it on the masters on most of them... maybe they mean modified with a trace of the initial image still there maybe someone can explain what step it was done at. The only thing that would be doubled is if they used one hub with the date mostly removed then a second with it in a new location but why use the the partial one is ? to me. Look at 1970-D for some examples of this)
Class 8 tilted hub doubling
(maybe the first hubbing is not flat so maybe it just presses in one area, on some the L of liberty or IN of motto then they hubbed it again flat. I think in most cases the second image will hide the first but if combined with another class you might see the tilted partial image then rotated or shifted by the other classes the second image. Maybe the tilted ones can only be seen on coins that also had another class of shift/doubling)
Class 9 single squeeze doubling, is there a better name?
(the doubling we see on the modern ones made with "single squeeze", probably the reason the CPG said the 97 DDO earlobe was not a DDO is at the time this type of doubling was not known but it is now. It seems to be the die shifting durring single squeeze but is not well understood, it could even be that they sqeezed more than once. Most of the time it will cause notching and or widening but not real sep of images)
Some or many ddo's are a combination of classes, I'd think all class 8 must also have another class and like I said I've never heard of a real class 7 and don't understand why they number it at all. For me just being able to see the non real ddo's is the key to finding the real ones regardless of truly understanding what class they might be.
Dick if you get any good book on doubled dies it will explain these in length... for me I try to simplify the reasoning to fit my pea sized brain so I try to reduce the descriptions to fit.
Like I said somebody can correct or add to my descriptions so we get it right I'd hate to give misleading definitions.
_________________
Ed
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 coopExpert Member
Posts: 3402
Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Location: Arizona
|
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:49 pm |
|
|
CP: The difference is one is Die doubling and the other mechanical/machine doubling. Normally the MD is making coins regular except when the machine was loose, making the dug in look on the devices. This happens to one or both sides/one letter or several. Sometimes one direction or two directions depending on the strike movement. The doubled die always makes the same marks and could contain machine doubling if the machine was loose. Here is an image of both examples. See if this helps?
Note the rounded look of the doubled die?
Notice the scratched/pushed distortion on the MD. Machine double varies from coin to coin, doubled dies are always the same separation because of how the die was hubbed. It is the die that is doubled. Thus the term "Doubled Die."
_________________
Richard S. Cooper
You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.
|
|
|
|
|
|
 eagamesExpert Member
Posts: 3013
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
|
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:30 pm |
|
|
CPs question is a good one.
Some real DDOs do look a lot like strike doubles and some strike doubles look a lot like DDOs.
At some point people catch on and can tell but in the beggining it's a good idea to look up (on this site) any coin you find and see if it's a match with something listed. If you don't see it listed it still could be an un-discovered DDO (so if uncertain post a photo or put the coin away for later) but comparing what you find with what's on the site should solve many of the mystery finds.
_________________
Ed
|
|
|
|
|
|
CPMember
Posts: 59
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Location: US
|
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:54 pm |
|
|
Coop, when I first started looking at the pics provided, I thought to myself, There is no differance.!  But after looking for several minuts, I first noticed the the slight curvature differance of the DDO.. Then I noticed a slight rotation that doesn't exsist on the MD.. I also noticed, that due to the slight rotation, there are notches produced on the DDO. (as CD Explained) I pointed to a couple in the pic below.. Ok, now for what I didn't get... I didn't see the distortion you spoke of on the MD, Could you point that out.? Also, do the varieties that simply have widening of the letters ussually show any notching since there is no rotaion?
Hey Ed.. Glad you joined in here.!
I was actually hunting a suspect '55 when I seen this cofusing
anomaly.! I will try to post a pic it in a little while..
Thanks,CP
|
|
|
|
|
|
coopExpert Member
Posts: 3402
Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Location: Arizona
|
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:15 pm |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CPMember
Posts: 59
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Location: US
|
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:57 pm |
|
|
WOW Coop,That was very educational.! Inspirational.!! And just a Excellent reference.!!!  Guess I know what to do with those MD's now... I attempted to get a pic of the '55, however my cammera just dont focus right without the daylight, but maybe you can make something out.. I will get some good shots tommorrow..
Thanks,CP
|
|
|
|
|
|
eagamesExpert Member
Posts: 3013
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
|
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:30 pm |
|
|
The 1955-D 1DO-001 is good example DDO.
We know it's a hub doubled die (the doubling is on the die), every coin of this die variety is exactly the same (came from the same die with that doubling). It has doubling on the date that has a good spread but is not very bold. It has doubling on the eye, ear and the lapel.
Like many DDOs if you only saw the date you might think it's a strike doubled coin but then when you see the rest of it you can tell it's not.
Class means the cause of the doubling that made the die have that doubled image. Every expert might have a different idea. This coin is listed:
1DO-001 class 3 (on this site)
FS-101 or FS-021.93 class 4+8 (By Fivas Stanton in the CPG)
DIE-1 class 4+8 (by Coneca)
It's hard to class some DDOs. This one confuses me! It seems the direction of doubling is different on the eye and the date so maybe they're from 2 different classes together. Maybe Bob or someone else can explain why they listed it as class 3. It might be a typo, I don't see how it could be class 3.
_________________
Ed
|
|
|
|
|
|
CPMember
Posts: 59
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Location: US
|
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:50 pm |
|
|
Thanks for the info you guys.. I went ahead & ordered Chucks book this evening.. I also wanted to order the 1955-D 1DO-001 from Lincoln cents store but didn't see one for sale.. What DDO would you recommend for reference/study purposes.. The big boys are obvious.! (Also $$) So I assume I need a slight spread to widening of the letter variety.?? BTW, didn't get any better pics of the '55 today.! The coin isn't listed in the encyclopedia & I dont think its a DDO..
However, why is the 9 so large in the curl.? Also whats wrong with the R in liberty.?
Thanks,CP
|
|
|
|
|
|
StevenExpert Member
Posts: 1298
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: S/E Missouri
|
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:49 pm |
|
|
CP the 9 may be at the beginning stages of a filled 9 caused by a die chip or crack. The R and 55 you pointed out look to be damage from takeing hits.
Steven
|
|
|
|
|
|
CPMember
Posts: 59
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Location: US
|
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:42 pm |
|
|
Thanks Steven.. Take a look at the pics of the coin in my new post..
CP
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
