Another Test Question

[Bob P]

This post is primarilly for the newbies, but all of you are more than welcome to comment on this one. This is a 1984 D Nickel. What kind of doubling is this??

[wavysteps2003]

Okay Bob - good question.

This form of doubling is most often confused with true hub doubling or a doubled die since it does appear to have notching.

To give a clue; think of "age".

BJ Neff

[Dick]

DDD
Dick

[eagames]

Yes Dick,

I think you nailed it.

One give away on this type of worthless doubling is that it shows up on both sides of the letters.

DDD = Die Deterioration Doubling

Maybe the term "Die Fatigue" would also fit?

[wavysteps2003]

Similar to Longacre's doubling, most commonly found on IHPs. And yes, I'll agree, definitely die deterioration doubling.

At times you will not see the doubling on both sides and it becomes dicier when trying to figure out if it is a doubled die or DDD. Rememeber, as the die state increases on age, the notching tends to become less discernible in a true doubled die. However, on DDD it becomes more pronounced.

The actual cause of this strengthening is due to metal flow eroding the die surface. One example that I use is the rippling in the sand from water flow; basically the same scenario, although with different elements involved.

While speaking of doubling, good, bad or indiferent, beware, there are auctions on Ebay showing doublings that are being made with soft dies. Worthless pices of junk that are meant to fool and that they do.

BJ Neff

[Bob P]

Very good folks. Y'all get an A. It wasn't much of a challenge, but it is a good educational piece. It's not often you see it as bad as this specimen. I got it in change the other day, and even with my bad eyes...this thing is naked eye visible. The obverse actually had a deteriorated die as well...but not to the extent of the reverse. This coin will stay in my collection as an extreme example of die deterioration doubling.

[JRocco]

How about this 83 Jeff Bob?

[Dick]

sure glad he dudn't aim that thing my way! I think I know, but I'll "lurk" a while, and see what happens.
Dick

[Russellhome]

I'd be looking to see if it is on the CONECA Master Listings page... Which I did... and it is not. Then I'd be asking the pros and hope for the best. But I suspect I'd be disappointed.

[GarryN]

Thats a nasty looking '83.

[Dick]

That it is, GarryN. I haven't tried to "look it up", because I think I would end up checking some of the photos of the different types of "doubling", and Just as a point of
"guessing", my guess is ejection doubling. Just a guess, though.
Dick

[Russellhome]

What kind of doubling is this...

[wavysteps2003]

MDD - the doubling is slanted and inconsistant on all the design elemenets.

BJ Neff

[Russellhome]

The funny thing about this coin is that it came from my older daughter’s stash of change. With the new OIV nickel finds that my younger daughter made (and the associated attention and accolades) , I think a little jealously creped in and she sat with me while we searched her coins. She did make me pay her $5 to keep this coin – which is all she was really interested in anyway.

About the coin – this one is listed by both Crawford and Wexler as 2000 P 5c xDDR-001 and was featured in Crawford’s last issue of DVN (Issue #10). Billy’s photos are much better than mine. BTW, that was not my coin, but I just got lucky and found the same variety.

Billy concedes that the coin is a late die state and shows some level of die deterioration. He also told me that some may not see it as he does. But as he said in his article, he saw doubling, notching, and separation lines that appeared to all move toward the center of the coin and may be a rare example of post 1996 distorted hub doubling.

I plan on sending the coin to CONECA for a 3rd opinion (as I said, Ribar listed it in the Wexler files, also). It will be interesting to see what Dr. James Wiles finds. Now if an EDS version appeared, that would synch it. But with the only known examples being LDS – I think the status as a DD is arguable. I’m no pro – I can only go by what the pros have to say.

[wavysteps2003]

As you said, it is a hard one to call. I have seen notching associated with die deterioration that looks similar and did an article on that subject in ERRORSCOPE.

While I respect the opinions of both Billy and John, in this case my analysis is different. I believe it is die deterioration coupled with machine doubling. There seems to be to much of a slant to the doubling consisitant with MDD.

If an early die state or even a mid die state showed the same type of doubling, then it would change my mind.

Then there is also the class. If it is a class II, it would have been a re-hubbed single squeeze die. Possible, yes. We have only to look at some of the stronger class IV doubled dies that have occurred in the single squeeze process that have a possibility of being strenghened from a multiple hubbing. Of course, there are those who say this does not occur and those who do.

It is unfortunate that we do not fully understand the single squeeze process and its possible idiosyncrasies. We can only guess at this stage what is happening.

BJ Neff