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daggitSenior Member
Posts: 560
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:07 pm |
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I wasn't sure where to post this because I don't know what it falls under, I can't get a good shot of where the date is yet. Is this mint damage or otherwise.
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 coopExpert Member
Posts: 3402
Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:28 pm |
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Looks like a brockage? Spelling didn't seem right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brockage
http://forumancientcoins.com/Articles/brockage/
Nice error find Sandra.
Ken Potter Mention this in an article:
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Brockage Strike definitions leave many experts confused.
Ken Potter - March 30, 1999
By my definition, a Brockage Strike is a coin that has been struck with another struck coin impressed into it during the strike. A first strike brockage is generally referred to as a "mirror brockage" and will usually exhibit a perfect mirror image of the lower die design (on a US coin this will usually be the reverse design). If the coin that was impressed into the brockage error sticks or "caps" the upper die it will continue to strike incoming planchets with each succeeding strike exhibiting a progressively greater degree of spread and distortion. Early stages of a Lincoln cent brockage (for example) show a distinct reversed design of the Memorial building (on the obverse) spread out to a greater or lesser degree but with no traces of the obverse design showing through. On the mid stage brockage the image tends to spread out even more and the "cap" has thinned enough to allow the obverse design to begin showing through but the reverse design still dominates. On later stages the reverse and obverse designs may both show but the obverse design eventually progress to a point that it dominates and simply looks like it was struck through something like aluminum foil. The date can often be detected at this point.
However, this is all subjective and what I consider an early stage may be another collectors "mid stage". Others may refer to a late stage brockage as "struck thru a late stage cap" or something similar. In some camps, the later stages (where the hammer die design begins to dominate), are referred to as "late stage brockages" while in other camps they are referred to as "capped die strikes" (meaning struck by a "capped die"). Still others use the terms interchangeably.
A look at the photos in The Illustrated Error Coin Price Guide (last published by Geoffrey Noe in 1991) indicates that Noe's terminology is reflective of that of the first camp; captions describe his photographs as "Early Stage," "Mid Stage" and "Late Stage" brockages.
On the other hand, a look at the Lincoln Cent Society's web site shows us a series of brockages that fall into Noe's mid stage to late stage designations described as, "a three coin progression ... of capped die errors." (Those coins can be seen by going here: http://www.lincolncentsociety.com/frmain.htm). On page 207 of Arnold Margolis', The Error Coin Encyclopedia II, he shows what he calls an "almost mirror brockage," an "approximately 4th strike brockage" and a "capped die strike" with the text further defining them all as being "various brockage stages." The stage he refers to as a "capped die strike" shows few traces of either design yet he refers to it as a brockage in one breath and a capped die strike in the next breath.
Now to confuse things even more, collectors outside of North America generally reserve the term to describe a 1st strike to maybe 2nd or 3rd strike brockage, or what may be referred to as an early stage brockage in the US. Now that collecting is becoming so globalized it would be desirable to attempt to communicate these differences better than what we've seen in the past so we all know what we're referring to. However, this will probably be difficult as many other specialized terms are also open to differing interpretations.
The practice of having two very dissimilar terms in use to describe the same error type is confusing to newcomers and even to long time specialists who only seem to know "what they mean when they say it." As confusing as this practice is, I doubt that it will abate just because the hobby is becoming globalized. This is because the hobby has yet to agree to one standard set of terms. Unfortunately, I doesn't appear as though the error-variety hobby will ever come to such agreement as there are as many terms as there are "experts" who are convinced they know what's best for the hobby (a group that I probably fall into whether I want to admit to it or not).
Perhaps the best we can do is communicate our differences so that we're at least aware of what the other fellow is referring to.
Excerpts from PCGS forum |
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Richard S. Cooper
You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.
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mikediamondAdvanced Member
Posts: 191
Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Location: Western Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:28 pm |
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It's a generic capped die strike. In other words, it was struck through a late-stage die cap.
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daggitSenior Member
Posts: 560
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:04 pm |
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Coop thank you very much for the article very informative. One day I will learn all this 
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daggitSenior Member
Posts: 560
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:05 pm |
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| mikediamond wrote: |
| It's a generic capped die strike. In other words, it was struck through a late-stage die cap. |
Thank you Mr. Diamond
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 DickExpert Member
Posts: 5780
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Location: Rialto, CA.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:14 am |
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Sandra, Mike is always lurking, and usually says very little, but; When he speaks, he speaks volumes!
Dick
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mikediamondAdvanced Member
Posts: 191
Joined: 09 Oct 2003
Location: Western Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:06 am |
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| daggit wrote: |
Thank you Mr. Diamond |
Please, call me Mike.
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President of CONECA; Host of Error Coin Information Exchange (Yahoo:Groups). Opinions rendered do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
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coopExpert Member
Posts: 3402
Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:01 am |
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When they get to this part of the capped die, they get interesting. They form a deep capped die that bonds several planchets into 1 from continued striking. These are very rare.
http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/coop49/sullivan_numismatics_Deep_Cap_Bonded.jpg
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Richard S. Cooper
You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.
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daggitSenior Member
Posts: 560
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:09 pm |
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| mikediamond wrote: |
| daggit wrote: |
Thank you Mr. Diamond |
Please, call me Mike. |
Ok Mike
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daggitSenior Member
Posts: 560
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:11 pm |
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Where would you find these Coop, in bags? Or do they get picked up from workers at the mint and then sold?
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coopExpert Member
Posts: 3402
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Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:26 pm |
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I'm guessing they were found in bags or by workers that rolled the coins. It couldn't have been from mint employees as they wear uniforms with no pockets and are searched before leaving each day. I bet they see stuff all the time. Probably to them it is floor scraps they have to toss away to be re-cycled.
The mint puts the coins into bag and occasionally roll them for sale. But the big coin handling companies are the only one that gets the bags now. I've heard that if they find any errors they have to turn back to the mint to be destroyed. If they don't they could be removed off the list for rolling coins. So error that don't fit into rolls are harder to find now days.
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DickExpert Member
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Location: Rialto, CA.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:31 pm |
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If the mint, et al were to use that "game-token"-oriented brain they have, they could make a lot more money, and we collectors could enjoy being able to purchase these items from the mint IMHO. I refer to the milti-cent, copper shot glasses.
Dick.
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coopExpert Member
Posts: 3402
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Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:30 am |
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The thing is that they don't want those errors to get out. If they did sell them, they would probably find soon there would be no market for them. They would be coins that collectors in Canada give NO attention to.
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Richard S. Cooper
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DickExpert Member
Posts: 5780
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Location: Rialto, CA.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:00 am |
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Coop, I guess you are right. I'm not surprised that the Canadians would NOT pay any attention to them. They are A different race! Sorry Daggit, I couldn't resist that. Just kidding! No offense intended! I'll bet they would make nice "thimbles".
Dick
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 eagamesExpert Member
Posts: 3013
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:56 pm |
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Daggit,
For recent years the mint ships everything in bulk by weight and the coins are rolled and distributed by companies like Brinks.
So many errors that get out of the mint would get found when those companies roll the coins. Any error that won't fit in a roll gets found. I assume the companies don't let the workers keep the coins but most of the big errors must get found there.
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Ed
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