Retained cud?

[Dick]

Mike, Thanks for the explanation. I knew the anvil situation was pretty well inderstood, but my lack of exzperience with "retained CUD's" is very limited, and your explanation og the hammer die scenario, makes much sense. I don't know exactly how the die is mounted, but it has to be a cylindrical form that the shank of the die slips into,and then is retained by bolts, or some other method.
Dick

[nohea]

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge. I am still pretty excited about finding this. I almost missed it because I was not looking at the reverses of the coins, but just happened to see this before I stored it in a container. Here are some additional pictures.

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[coop]

Not sure on the retained cud explination. I've always viewed a retained cud as part of the die that cracked and was still holding to the die, but moved so the design is still there, but shifted because the the die break that would soon be a cud.

A cud would show weakness on the opposite edge (in this case the obverse) but I don't see the weakness there and the area in question doesn't seem to have the detail of the die with that strength that should be there. So I'm still not decided what it could be. Is that area where the mark firmly fixed as part of the planchet, or is their a piece of debrie over that spot? It looks like part of the planchet, but the lack of design there makes me question the retained cud theory.

[mikediamond]

If there's only slight vertical displacement, then you are probably right in entertaining doubts about whether the part of the die cordoned off by the crack really detached from the die neck. It's well-known that some die cracks ("bi-level die cracks") exhibit vertical displacement equal to or exceeding that of many claimed retained cuds.

Nevertheless, in the absence of any information to the contrary, I categorize fractures such as that seen as your coin as retained cuds. If an arcing, rim-to-rim die crack exhibits vertical displacement throughout its course, then I call it a retained cud.

When there's extreme vertical displacement, then I'm more confident in my diagnosis.

[Dick]

Coop, are you thinking the same thing as I thought, at first? A "fold-over"
Dick

[coop]

Viewing the edge shot (Or close rim shot) it appears that the anomoly is very thin. The folder over piece of foil thin debrie could leave that type of mark. If he soaked it in mineral oil, it might come off. If it didn't then it could be a die issue.

[mikediamond]

It's clearly a retained cud or an arcing rim-to-rim die crack. This is the most common place for such defects to develop. The irregular line of the crack is visible on the wheat ear.

If it was a folded-over-before-strike lamination, it would be flush with the design and field and there would be a narrow fissure surrounding it.

If it was a blanking burr (rolling fold) you'd see the same thing.

[nohea]

I hadn't thought of the fold over possibility, I automatically assumed it was a cud. I took my trusty dremel tool and ... nah, I removed some of the debris with the edge of a sheet of paper and there does not appear to be any break betwen the raised section and the rest of the design. The outer contour of the wheat ear is offset from the rest of the design which would seem to indicate that a die piece shifted (even though I still am not clear on the minting process but learning thanks to all of your knowledge). I will take and post some additional pictures.

[eagames]

Here's a couple CUDs I think are from non-retained CUDs.

This one is slightly weak on the rev side opposing the CUD, I first thought it was a foldover but looking close it has no folded section.



Here's a Broas Brothers civil war Pie token that I think has a CUD but I'm still looking for a pic of another with it to be sure it was not some strange damage folded over and worn.



I ignored the best CUD I ever saw out of stupidity. Years ago I was helping a YN sort a change jar and fill some modern folders. He laughs and says he found a new quarter with a bump instead of a date so he could fill any hole in the folder since it had no date. I laughed and told him it would be cheating so we tossed it in the pile to be spent. At the time I had no idea what a CUD was. Years later I saw one of the same clad quarters with the same big CUD that took the entire date off selling on ebay and it's a listed nice CUD variety. It was the same as the one we had tossed back. LOL a lesson learned.