Is This A Severely Rotated Doubled Die?

[ddorpm]

Below is a 2000-D Lincoln cent with what certainly appears to be raised remnants of the 6th and 7th columns located to the upper left of the statue and correspondingly to the bottom right of the legs pointed out by the arrows.

The next photo is the same but with an overlay of the two columns that are rotated 50 degrees clockwise and superimposed over those remnants.

So I ask: Is this a severely rotated doubled die?

[eagames]

It could be a ddo but if not......

Gouges or could it be some sort of lathe marks that were in the center of the die?

[Dick]

Billy, I can't say that it is a doubled die, nor can I say it is a clash. My impression, with the rotation, the indications of the two columns, (which one has a small extension in bay 5), is that it was a test , and the pie was out of positionny the angle indicated, afterwhich the operator re positioned the die, and the strike made, resulting in the view you have. It is just an idea. I am not that qualified to judge.
Dick

[Dick]

It does appear to have a doubled statue, check the center if the statue. Bob?
Dick

[Bob P]

Billy,
There certainly is precedent for a rotation like this. I would suspect the first attempt at hubbing was just a kiss on the die, and then reset. One thing that looks a little weird, and maybe you can verify it...are the angles the same on both the 6th and 7th columns? I know the overlay seems to match, but the angles just look a little off.
I have saved a few of these I think. Let me look through my coins and see if I can't find them.

[coop]

I found one of those a couple of years back and John Wexler listed it as a DDR. Bill slaughter also found one that was the same die. Nice to see others turn up.

[Dick]

The Keys that lock the die in various positions, indicate that a mis-positioning of the die could gove an indication like that. As Bob said, a "Kiss'", and then re-hub it in the correct position.
Just a thought.
Dick

[ddorpm]

Here's a 2005 Lincoln cent assigned in my "C" files as CDDR-026. This coin was submitted to me from Kenneth Russell.

Top photo shows both extra knee remnants as well as the 7th column boldly protruding outward from the primary column as pointed to with the red arrows.

Bottom photo is the same as the top photo but now with an overlay that is rotated almost 35 degrees clockwise and then superimposed over the remnants. Though this DDR is not rotated as severely as the 2000-D Lincoln cent shown above, nevertheless, it is still extremely rotated.

What say ye?

[Bob P]

Off hand, I would say Yes. The two photos below show what I believed to be column bars. I have never listed them because I was unsure of they were bars or gouges. As in Billy's photos, they do not have the same severe tilt, and they only affect the one bar. I know I have more in here somewhere, including ones with bars and doubled knees. I just hate going through about 3500 coins in my 'Maybe' file to try and find them.

[ddorpm]

Bob: Thanks for sharing and your valuable input. Those appear, at least to me, to be more examples of doubled dies with various degrees of rotation.

What I'm attempting is to receive your thoughts concerning doubled dies that are severely rotated. The 2005 Lincoln cent shown above is rather obvious since it also exhibits both extra knees which are rotated at the same degree with the protruding extra column remnants.

Can we have one up to 50 degrees or maybe even more severely rotated?

[Dick]

Looking again at the keys to position the die(s), there is a definite sequence, Every 60 degrees, there is a key-slot, or kwyway. This corresponds with the angles shown on the various ohotos. Go to PD, and put the lines at every 60 degrees around the clock, and then look for the angles of the different photos that have been posted by the various members. The angles are true. Which tends to support my theory that it was from a "Kiss" to check the pposition of the newly installed die. The next position most likely was the correct one, in each case.
I have never seen "OLe Abe" so tipsey, before! I wonder what he had the night before?
An after thought. Looking at the several photos, and the angles, AND the fact that we do have "doubling on the statue, and the bars show frequently, , At least with the "single-squeeze" method, we are seeing now, I would venture to say, Yes, it is doubling.
Dick

[ddorpm]

"I found one of those a couple of years back and John Wexler listed it as a DDR. Bill slaughter also found one that was the same die. Nice to see others turn up."

Thanks Coop for info. That's great news! Then the 2000-D Lincoln cent is a doubled die with 50 degree rotation. Do you happen to know the "W" number assigned to it so I can annotate my file card?

[Bob P]

Billy,
There is little doubt in my mind that we can have that degree of angle for a doubled die.

I don't know if you know about this one that I found about a year ago. I sent it to John, and he listed it as a doubled die as well. Tell me what you think of the angle on this one.

http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1999&die_id=1999p1dr016&die_state=mds

[ddorpm]

Thanks Bob for your thoughts. I too believe severe angles of rotation can happen.

I like that 1999P-1DR-016. That is super looking! Congrats on your find. As far as your asking about the angle of degree on it -- it looks to be somewhat on par with the other two you illustrated above.

Though these types of DDRs are not per se major varieties, however, I do feel they provide valuable information in helping us to further understand the hubbing process.

[Gabe]

Very interesting find. Like Bob P said, I have saved a lot of these doubled bars, since I have always been unsure of whether or not they are doubled dies.

It seems to me that the coin that Billy has pictures is of a doubled die, and it seems a bit obvious because of the detail of the area in question...