1959d Dime

[pubcrawler]

So here's a coin I found some time ago but I don't believe it's ever been actually listed by anyone officially. So Chuck I'm figuring you don't do attribution on anything but copper right?

[Bob P]

You are right Pubcrawler, in that Chuck only attributes coppers right now. That being said, that is a great RPM you have there. I do believe it is listed by CONECA as their RPM #001, but I am not absolutely sure. Nice RPM!!

[pubcrawler]

Well to confirm what you Bob, I did send in an inquiry this morning to their attributor for 20th century coins and he said thesame thing. And I ask if he thought it should be slabbed and he said that it probably wasn't of good enough quality to waste the money. But it sure do look pretty good to me anyhow. Now I think it was you Bob who wasn't as keen on slabbing, at least these coins and wanted to know just in general why? It's no big deal just curious..

[Bob P]

I don't think it was me who said that about slabbing Pubcrawler. I know Chuck is not a real big advocate of slabbing. To be perfectly honest with you though, I am not real keen into slabs either. To be fair also...there is a place for them in the hobby. To authenticate a coin, especially rarities, I think it is a must. Where I have a problem is where folks send in 30 bucks slabbing fee to slab a two dollar coin. They may never recoup their slabbing fees. A slab seems to put an unrealistic premium on some coins in some cases. Ultimately, if you plan on reselling nice coins, then the slab may get you a few extra dollars.
In the case of your coin, I agree with what the attributor said. The coin, in it's current condition, and although an extremely nice variety, does not warrant the fees associated with a slab. There are too many dings, nicks, and wear.
Once again, the decision on whether or not to slab the coin rests with you. Now that you have an attribution, do a little research on the price of that variety in that condition. Make your decisions based on research and on what you plan on doing with it. If you plan on keeping it in a personal collection then slabing may not be necessary. Make those decisions based on what you want.
In either case Pubcrawler, it's an awful nice RPM. One of the strongest separations you'll find on any dime. Congrats!

[coppercoins]

My lack of keen-ness in slabs generally surrounds two things...

First, grading is a stab in the dark with most of them, and the others overgrade. I would never buy any coin for anywhere near its market price in an unseen slab regardless of the coin or the slabbing company. I don't trust them any farther than I can carry them.

Second, their attribution of die varieties is spotty. PCGS will attribute all of two dozen different Lincoln varieties. ANACS handles somewhere around 1,500 of them...all said, there are actually well over 2,000 different Lincoln varieties, and none of the companies currently recognize all of them. I am working on ANACS and ICG to recognize the system used here, which will be the most complete of any of the published systems by the time we are complete with it.

My only other beef with the slabbers is the over exaggerated market they bring. A PCGS MS65 coin will bring double the money of the exact same coin in an ANACS slab, and that's not by mistake or chance. PCGS is owned by the same parent company that publishes the Coin Dealer Newsletter (CDN), which gives supposed market "values" for slabbed coins. This supposed market value is very respected by many in the community, and many of them don't understand what it really is and what it really supports, and they blindly trust it...and are taken advantage of regularly by others.

The positive side arguement made by many is that having your coins slabbed protects them and ensures their genuineness and passes along a sealed grade and value to heirs...blah, blah, blah. If a person learns how to grade and detect altered, cleaned, and counterfeit coins, learns how to store their coins properly and does so religiously, they can achieve the same results without spending $30 per coin for a holder.

All that being said, my position is to not have my coins slabbed unless someone is willing to reduce the exhorbinant fees AND recognize the die numbers I want on my own coins. For the same reasons I do not push slabbing toward anyone else. If they want to use the system, they can...no problem. I won't do it to have CONECA numbers or NCADD numbers attached to my coins for the fees they charge. I'd rather holder the coins myself (using 4 cent flips if that's waht it takes) and use the only fully published free system out there, the one published right here.

That's my story.

[pubcrawler]

Well You guys got my vote.. Thanks for the opinions and information.... So is there a place that is as organized and where truth abounds about other coins and their varieties other than copper. I mean I wish I could find and learn as much about other coins as I learn here about copper coins. Not that you guys aren't versed on most most, I just find this site so complete on copper it's amazing to me, and want more like this for all varieties, all coins. With this much honesty! Thanks again

John

[lucky2]

Chuck
If you consider Slabed Coins are priced like Diamonds it may help. The stated value of a diamond is usually twice what you can purchase one for. This is used for insurance purposes and usually has no bearing on what you can buy it for.
lucky2

[Bob P]

John,
I am not aware of any other site and/or publication that goes as deep into other denominations as coppercoins.com does on coppers. We are hoping to expand in the future, but are looking for resident experts in the fields of the other denominations. Chuck owns the domain name of USCOINVARIETIES, and that is how we plan on expanding. If we can get other folks to take on the challenge of identifying, photographing, and assigning numbers based on the coppercoins system, then this can sure go places.

[pubcrawler]

That would be great if you guy's moved it up a notch, but I'm sure it's quite a process, time comsumming and such. Maybe when I retire which is still about 7 or 8 years away, I'll have learned enough about this stuff to may do some part time helping myself if you'll have me! Later...

[Bob P]

In 7 or 8 years...you may be THE authority on this stuff John. Just keep plugging away. Learning is a never ending process, and enthusiasm for the hobby can be contageous. I am sure we'll take you, and train you if necessary should you desire to expand your horizons

[coppercoins]

Lucky...

I appreciate your response, but comparing the pricing of coins and diamonds is like comparing apples and oranges. My reference to the slabbing companies, especially PCGS and how they dominate the market, is quite unlike anything in the diamond industry that I am aware of. The problem persists in a company gaining a reputation then using that reputation to further their market share in less than completely honest methods. I won't go further than that other than to say to refer back to the section of my post regarding PCGS and the CDN. That and that alone is why a person can buy and sell coins in their (PCGS) holders for the stated market value, while the exact same coins in other holders sells for a mere fraction of that amount. It's ludicrous.

[Mark]

Chuck:

Are you sure of your comment "PCGS is owned by the same parent company that publishes the Coin Dealer Newsletter (CDN)"? I can find no evidence that this is the case. In paticular, I can't find anything on the CDN website that indicates they are owned by Collectors Universe (the company that owns PCGS) and I can find nothing on the Collectors Universe website that indicates they own CDN. In fact, based on the 10-k filed by Collector's Universe in June 2002, they DEFINITELY did not own CDN at that time.

I think there is some "fuzzy grey area" in PCGS's arena, that has been partially removed by Collectors Universe's sale of David Hall Rare Coins back to David Hall but I sure do not see where they own CDN. But, I hasten to add, I could easily be incorrect. After all, if I was always right, I'd be a multi-billionaire owner of several 1804 dollars...

Mark

[Scott]

There are some pretty strong opinions out there...to slab or not to slab? I like dark blue vehicles...they may make the next guy ill. My point is that it's a personal choice...not madatory by any means. I have a friend that will buy a variety he needs or perhaps a choice chocolate lincoln from the teens then crack them out and add them to his collection. That's what he chooses to do....and I'm fine with it.

Personally, I like my varieties verified and in plastic and I'm not ashamed to say it. Anacs charges $16.00 with a 5-day turnaround. They also have an economy service at $11.00 per coin, cheaper yet in volume. I'll also add that more often than not, I agree with their grading.

My opinion of PCGS...they grade a lincoln and most coins extra tough for the average "collectors club" submitter. It sometimes makes a guy laugh to see full page adds of pcgs coins offered by "collectors universe" companies in the past with a full stable of finest knowns or "pop-tops". What a total joke! It obviously matters who the submitter is. Too bad Coinworld or Numismatic News doesn't enlist an average Joe to personally submit 10 assorted coins and then re-submit through a well known pcgs authorized dealer. Then compare and publish the grades. I suspect there might be interesting, newsworthy results.

Scott

[Bob P]

Very well said Scott, and I couldn't agree more about it being a collectors choice on whether or not to slab. I think we all pretty much said that. I think one of the main issues here was whether or not he should spend that much (whether it be 11, 16, or 30 dollars) to slab a coin that may not be worth that much. The point was made on whether he wanted to keep or sell the coin. Varieties are a different animal it seems. Once a coin can be positively attributed, then we don't necessarily need PCGS or anyone else to verify that it is. Because they say it is a variety, doesn't make it any different than If I said it was a variety. One of the questions remains....Is it worth a premium (sometimes substantial) because it is in a slab?
I also agree with your statement about having an average Joe submit coins, and then re-submit. It has been a known occurance that sometimes the same exact coin, to the same exact company, comes back with a different grade. I personally would go bonkers If I had re-submitted an MS66, and it came back MS65. Not only have I pretty much thrown my money away (again), but I had also decreased the value of my coin based on anothers opinion.
Slabbing is a personal preference, and no one will twist anyone's arm to have it done. Whether buying, selling, or trading, I don't think a piece of plastic with someone's opinion printed on it should command a substantial premium. The majority of the collectors out there are the average Joe type. Maybe they like holding the coin in their hand rather than the plastic. If you are into collecting for the love of the hobby, and increasing their personal collections, and not in it for the big bucks, then maybe slabbing is not really necessary??

[coppercoins]

Mark,

I am not certain of the statement, and for that reason I probably shouldn't have said it. It is a well known fact that the CDN far favors PCGS and for very little realistic reason. I have heard for years that PCGS had a LOT to do with the publication, and if they aren't driven by the same people, then the owners of both companies sure play a lot of golf together. Whether it be a buddy-buddy relationship or co-ownership doesn't really matter. It's obvious they scratch each other's backs. If that weren't the case, ANACS slabs would be right up there in value with PCGS...they have a lot more going for them than PCGS ever did.

It is unfortunate that the statement Scott made is true, and true beyond any shadow of doubt regardless of what the company representatives say. If you are a big spender and give them millions of dollars in slabbing fees, you WILL get a different (better) grade on your coins than they often deserve. If you give them a couple hundred dollars a year, your coins WILL be very subjectively graded, often harshly.

ICG made steps toward ending this pathetic business practice with blind grading. They are still working toward achieving the nirvana they seek at this, and have had some rocky roads to travel - one of which being that their slabs are blindly disrespected because the CDN down plays anything good ICG has ever done.

Some other companies have earned their disrespect, and others yet were never given a chance. My opinion, though, is that if you are a die variety collector who wants a bat's chance in hell of getting anything out of your varieties, have them slabbed by ANACS and ICG, forget the rest, and wait for the matter to resolve itself through time. Intelligence will have to prevail eventually, and those who have gone with the slabbers who recognize there are more than a dozen varieties in the Lincoln cent series will win in the long run.