this one surprised me

[cnladue]

I had this one in my book for 15 years and never noticed the clash?untill i took this picture.

[Bob P]

Pretty cool to have an off-center strike and a 'prisoner cent' all in one. Very nice

[ken]

Very nice!!!!!

[cnladue]

now I am really excited cause i took out my two other 1985 offcenters and THEY HAVE IT TOO!-i will take pics after i go get kids from school.how could that be?

[Dick]

Carol, not is that an off-center clash, it is also a multiple clash. Real nice. Note the reverse, as well indicates clash remnants.
Dick

[mikediamond]

It's not a particularly unusual combination -- clash marks on an off-center strike. I've seen numerous examples.

[cnladue]

now I have three prisoners , waa ha ha-evil laugh

[Bob P]

I am assuming they are all the same die. Very cool...but that sinister evil laugh of your is scary

[Dick]

I know what you mean, Bob, my hair is gray!
Dick

[cnladue]

My prisoners are very very happy so no worry.ANYWAY,um,so if these are the same die with a clash,does that mean it was not caused from the offset hit?OH MIKE,I know these are a bit common for you but please explain how I have ended up with these ?

[cnladue]

Let me rephrase that last Question to mr diamond.Are these type of clashes caused by the working dies hitting each other so that would explain why 3 of these would exsist,or are they caused by the striking of the coin itself?My notes say I bought all three of these at a coin show back in 89.Does anybody else have an 85 that is like these?

[mikediamond]

The clash marks are caused by the dies colliding with each other when a planchet fails to be fed into the striking chamber and when the minimum die clearance has fallen to zero. So it requires two malfunctions. The collision transfers the design elements of one die to the opposite die and vice versa. Thereafter, every coin struck by these dies carries these transferred design elements.

I must modify my previous post. In my opinion there is a loose association between die clash and other mechanical errors, including off-center strikes. When one thing is going wrong, oftentimes other things are going wrong.

Still, given the relative abundance of both errors existing in isolation, it's not hard to see why they should sometimes co-occur even if there is no causal link.

[cnladue]

the term" casuall link" in regards to the existence of errors is something I have been curious about for 30 years.I have always wondered if mint employees,while noticing something like these 85s,could just pull them out and take them home to sell for extra money to dealers?I am NOT saying any mint workers make them purposely.only after made by chance,having the option to pocket them .I have met a few dealers over the years that seem to have groups of errors like these and when questioned about how they got them ,they seem to clam up lol.

[Bob P]

It's not surprising that dealers won't reveal their sources. A lot of these are found when banks or other companies like Wells Fargo, Brinks, etc. went to wrap the coins into rolls. If anything wouldn't go through the machinery, they would normally take the rejects and sell them on the open markets Whether or not this was permitted is normally a 'NO', but they get out there some way. As far mint employees being able to sneak these out of the mint, I would say it was possible, but not too probable. All errors discovered at the mint are supposed to be returned for recycling.