1971 'Need help in Identifing this one'

pennyhound · Veteran Member

I sent 3 coins to CONECA for Attribution.

Couldn't find any listed information on these, nor could anyone I checked with.

Below is his observations:

Ltr from: (CONECA - Attributor)

" (1 & 2) These are from the same die as per the die scratches on the upper reverse. The only doubling I can see is on the date. The upper first 1 and the outside of the 71. This is a Master Die Doubled Obverse (MDO). There are two master dies for 1971. The other does not have the doubling on the date, but has a stronger outline to the bowtie. I haven't done any studies yet to see if either is rare.

(3) Different die, but from the MDO.

Please note for your next submittion that after 7 years of steady rates, the CONECA Board of Directors has increased the attribution fee to $4.00 per coin plus return postage & insurance ($5.00 per package)."

I thought I would get at least a listing for these, sorta feel like I wasted my money on this attribute, seeing as this is what I sent them in for, in the first place.

So, if anyone could, please tell me what I have here, as far as a 'Cross Reference' of any sort, or preferably, the 'die variety' listing. These are not in any of the current (or past) references, I have checked, to include the, CONECA U.S. Doubled Die Master Listing dtd 1994, nor the 'online' listing on the 'CONECA' web currently.

This is my first posting on these forums and hope I didn't get to carried away, if so, please let me know and thanks ahead of time for any comments anyone may have.

coppercoins · Site Admin

Welcome to the site.

"Master Die" refers to the main die created from the master hub that creates all the working hubs and working dies for a given period of time. Hub doubling can occur on the master die, but is generally caught, unless severely minor, as yours is.

Many different years' coins exhibit master die doubling, and for the better part, collectors completely dismiss it after finding hundreds of them after having gone through a number of coins of that year. It is not considered collectible as doubling, and would not gain a die listing number from most entities, this one included. This is because what you have is not "a" doubled die. Doubled die is a term reserved for dies that exhibit unique hub doubling of their own. Master die doubling transfers to a large number of dies, thus is extremely common and not valuable or collectible.

As for what CONECA does and says I will not comment. This site is in no way affiliated with CONECA nor James Wiles, and does not communicate or confer with James Wiles for anything. The one thing I will offer is that your answer from him was far longer and more detailed than most receive.

Again, welcome to coppercoins.com and please do not hesitate to post whatever you feel necessary to get your point across and learn from, or help others learn from what you share here. There are no rules here other than being courteous to one another - this I require, but to date have never had a single problem. The people here are dynamite people and share a lot of knowledge. I guess the only other thing is not to ask for CONECA or NCADD information on this site. They provide their information and ignore this site, I provide my information and for the better part ignore them. I will not speak or respond for them. If you're cool with that, everything's fine.

joeyuk · Advanced Member

Hi Ron. Nice pics. Joe

pennyhound · Veteran Member

C. D. Daughtrey; Joe ... hello to you both, and no I have no problem at all with what you have written or with what you have, in reguards to site (going/s on), as you can see, even tho I used the name 'CONECA', I left the proper name off, and will allways do that as I didn't have his permission to use it. (courtesy, I extend to all)

Joeyuk (Joe)... thanks for referring me to this site, it's about time something like this came along. (just now getting to the site and let me tell ya ... I'm impressed ... have read most, early this morn and I like it very much)

Daughtrey: great job and I will contribute to the extent possible.

pennyhound · Veteran Member

After looking at the pictures I have posted ... do you see any other doubling besides the '1' and '71' of the date? and do you agree to the above statement made as to this being a MDO? ... my eyes see alot of other doubling than just on the date.

Even if this is a MD 'O/R' ... this is another item to be mentioned or at least put up on the site, so as other/s maybe informed as such ... don't ya think? (maybe a MD O/R listing of all dates would be a good idea) If for no other reason ... as to inform others of the MD O/R's.

If you like, I could send the same coins in so thy maybe photographed ... for informtion purposes.

coop · Expert Member

Pennyhound: Machine doubling happens on every year with others known more. 1968, 1969 seems to be plagued with them.
http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/coop49/Machine_Doubled_DATE_MM.jpg
http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/coop49/Machine_Doubled_DATE_Motto.jpg
http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/coop49/Machine_Doubled_LIBERTY.jpg
http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/coop49/MDbottom.jpg
http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/coop49/MDminor.jpg
Hard to find good ones sometimes. LOL The 1972 master die doubling present on all mints is a good example of common doubling. You can find them in a lot of the 1972 Cent coins. They are listed as a doubled die but don't comand a premium for them. But they list it as Die # 5. "Very common and no extra value" is the way they word it. A lot of wierd stuff happens at the mint.
http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/coop49/WHAT_Happened.jpg
And some if it gets out. LOL

pennyhound · Veteran Member

Master Die Doubled Obverse (MDO) not machine doubling.

Thanks for your input, but the MD referred to here is not 'machine doubled' but rather a 'master die doubled' die.

The machine doubled impression/s are of a flat, shelf-like finish, were as you can see, these have a rounded (doubled impression) finish to them.

Very different animals, like, cat/s and dog/s (no punt intended there).

(Still think it would be a great idea, to have a 'master die' listing, for these/those dates that may require it, the master die/s that have the doubling, both Obverse and reverse, as mentioned above, for the new and not so new collectors and for information purposes, after all, that is what this site and other/s it is all about, isn't it?)

coop · Expert Member

Pennyhound: After a few hours later, it hit me that was what you were talking about.. Duh me.. I guess I hear of the Machine Doubling Damage a lot more than the Master Die Doubling. Sorry my mistake. Great to see you posting.

Gabe · Senior Member

I think CONECA keeps a listing of master die doubling, but they dont publish it or make it public. In other words, it helps no one in the hobby.

coppercoins · Site Admin

I quite disagree that a list of master doubling would not help the hobby. I do intend on doing something regarding photographing and listing all of the master die doubling I can find and placing links to such photos in the date guide of each different date.

Regarding these particular coins, I don't need to examine them in person, I have plenty. I just haven't come up with the time to properly organize it yet.

pennyhound · Veteran Member

In my option only, and for simplicity, list with the other dies of any 'date & series' as this would put them were anyone could go to and find them with all other 'Master/Doubled/Tripled/Quad/Clash'.

Example:
1983 Mad Clash, LCCLO-001
Description:The impression of the letters LIBE can be seen upside down above the date.

1983 Extra Letters, LCCLO-002
Description:The impression of 'IN GOD' is seen below and to the left of the words 'IN GOD WE TRUST'. What looks like clash marks of the rim are seen through 'IN GOD' and from the top of Lincoln's head.

1983 (Any Master Die Doubled Dies) LCMDO-...

1983 Doubled Die Obverse, LCDDO-001 (and so on)

1983 Doubled Die Reverse, LCDDR-001 (and so on)

Old term used when I was in millitary ... KISS ... 'Keep It Simple Stupid'.

Keep all that pertain/s to a 'date & series' in the same place, with that 'date & series'.

I for one, have quite a few of these and would, as other/s would be, I'm sure, glad to send in ... for this purpose.

I would love to see this happen, more, sooner than later ... long over due, agian, in my option only.

Ref: COOP, np, (no problem) go's on with all of us from time to time (post & prior ... thought/s)

Gabe, agree (guess this is were alot of the submittion/s come from and would be lost monies for the atributor/s)

joeyuk · Advanced Member

A listing of master doubled dies would be useful although if your going thru a roll when you see a pattern in all coins you know something is up. On the other hand if you do find something in an original roll the odds must be good you will find more.
As for your question Ron I see doubleing on "in God we trust" as well.

I like the '71 you won here.[url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3923428861 [/url] Wink

At least you gave me time to rebid. Smile

pennyhound · Veteran Member

Joe ... lol ... ya I to hate to get my 'pants' yanked down in the last few seconds of an auction, as well, but we all know, it happens way to much, but then again, it's the the name of the game in ways. I try and give other/s a chance to get back in it when going thru auctions. (do onto other/s ... ya know)

joeyuk · Advanced Member

I agree. If it is someone I know I try to give them some time. But when thw right coin comes along look out.

coppercoins · Site Admin

Tell you the truth, Pennyhound, I have never cared one bit about master die doubling. Through the years of looking through coins I picked a lot of it out and saved it until it started repeating itself far too many times to be individual doubled dies, then I tossed them back in the rolls and piles without further thought other than to remember what I saw so I'd cursorily pass it by next time. I never gave it any more thought. I must have saved fifteen dozen 1944 and 1972 cents that I thought were doubled dies until I realized that most of them have that same doubling and are worthless. Confused me why the books listed these as doubled dies.

As to "which die" this 1971 cent belongs, it would be from a doubled master die and difficult to determine if at all possible. As far as I am concerned master die doubling cannot be quantified by die numbers. My intent is to show "an example" of master die doubling for each year it occurs and be done with it.

Regarding treating it as any "new die variety" it simply doesn't work that way. A die variety has to have markers and a discernible die state to be listed in the system, and it also has to be a single doubled die to receive a die number. I do not intend on listing all of the different dies of a single doubled master die and calling each of these dies "doubled dies", and that would be the only way it would work. Not only would it become a headache far exceeding its worth, but would take a lot of valuable time and disk space in listing coins that are generally considered valueless. It would also be falsely listing such coins as doubled dies whereas they are not. The design was doubled on the hub before it made it to the die, and consequently doubled on the master die before making it to the hub. Thus none of these coins were minted with a doubled die.

My only purpose in trying to somehow publish the information on the master die doubling is to show people what is considered "normal" and "non-collectible" as it is. Many novice collectors are fooled by master die doubling and purchase them from either unknowledgeable or ruthless sellers who pawn them off as doubled dies because CONECA and Breen had listed them as such...doubled dies, that is. My intent is to keep people from being taken by these very common pieces and concentrate on something that may be of value...not to issue die numbers to this common form of doubling and follow suit with the others who assigned variety numbers to them thus confusing a number of collectors.

So...when I get time, I will photograph the attributes of common master die doubling from each of the different dates on which it occurs and will publish the information from the date guide of the date affected. Beyond that, I will list die varieties only - not master die doubling, clashes, die chips, machine doubling, or errors - in the die variety system. I like a clean, tidy ship that's easy to navigate and easy to understand. I want it to be abundantly clear that master die doubling is very common and not worth a hoot because it is so common, but I agree with you in that it needs to be exposed for what it is. People need to see it and learn to recognize it.