"T" over broken"T"

[Dick]

Bob, can you relate me to the way that (I) view the coin? I see a "broken T", sitting on the full "T". I am referring to the 1941P-DDO-018. It is plain that there are two "T"'s, indicating two strikes. Is this the case? Or were the letters, (devices) all hand punched, even then? Why is it a "T"over a broken "T", when the broken one is the one sitting in plain view? We went thru this with the 1960D-DDO-***, large date over the small date, and I Didn't get it clear then, either. Same situation, but different players. BTW, I have gone thru at least a roll of '41-S, in the last 48 hours, and Im not sure whether I have seen any broken "T's", or not. I can't cook, or clear the crud from them, because they aren't mine.
Dick

[eagames]

Dick,

Maybe I can explain it......

I might get it wrong so anyone feel free to add to this or correct my terminology.

Most dies are hubbed more than once. Most of the time they are hubbed by the same working hub and it is aligned properly and does not make a DDO. If not aligned correctly it causes a doubled die.

BUT.... there is no guarantee they use the same working hub for both hubbings. So on some years like 1960 they had working hubs with LD and with SD so if they used a LD hub then the second hubbing was a SD the die became a SD over LD.

So in 1941 they had a hub that had a broken T. As it was used with non broken hubs they made all sorts of dies with broken over non broken and non broken over broken and also the broken hubs T was breaking up more as the hub was used so some are more broken than others as time passed.

It is similar to 1936. They had one working hub with a broken R of liberty so some 1936 DDOs show the broken R and the non broken R and other coins were made with only the broken R so some have a broken R but are not DDOs and by chance the 3 big 1936 DDOs were made using the broken hub and a non broken hub.

Maybe Bob can add to this.
I'm not sure of the right terminology.

[eagames]

Here's a simpler explanation:

A person puts a hand in mud and makes handprints. (dies)
Then does it again to make it deeper but you can't tell he did it twice since the hand is in almost the same spot (normal die). Halfway through his little finger gets amputated (broken T) and he finishes the handprints but the last couple of handprints show a missing little finger over a non missing finger.

Then to explain why it can be reversed with the non broken over broken.....

He made a few handprints with the missing finger but before doing it the second time he goes to the hospital and they re-attach the finger (new die) and he gets home and finishes the second hand prints so it makes non missing over missing finger handprints.



On the 1936 DDOs not only did they have a broken R for one hubbing but also they did not align it well so you see both the broken and the non broken. On the 1941 broken Ts they got the alignment better but you can still see it.

Ones like the 1960 SD/LD are slightly different, they are class 3 design hub doubling since they used hubs with 2 different designs. The 1941 broken T and 1936 broken R are not truly different designs they're damaged designs and we might not see them at all if they were not also mis-aligned.

[Bob P]

Sorry about the delay in responding...I was outside making hand prints in the mud

I think you pretty well explained it Ed. I really like your analogy.

I think what may be confusing is whether or not it was a full T over broken T or a Broken T over Full T. I am using the terminology CONECA is using because they are the only other ones I know who list them. However...you bring up a very good point. Not all of the coins I listed are actual full T over broken T. Some of the narratives need to be adjusted to show broken T over broken T, and broken T over full T. I will get to that as soon as I can.