Die Varities,markers etc

fiddle-fart · Veteran Member

I might have asked this in another post but this might be the right one.
I've seen in other post about a die varities.
do they change the dies often?
how do you know when they change the die or is it a hide & seek game?
do they put in markers to identify the die or is it a oh-oh on the part of the die makers?
too many questions to go but these are a start

Thanks
Mike Embarassed

eagames · Expert Member

I'll try

They use many many dies each year. Maybe thousands of them.

A die life is short, maybe for modern cents I bet a die only lasts a few days or maybe a week.

Markers can be polish lines or cracks, they are unintentional. They change as the die is used so you might see where a variety coin only has a marker in certain die states.

We track markers to help us ID individual dies with a given variety. Nobody tracks all the normal dies, it's not possible since there are so many dies used.

Also they sometimes replace one side so a given obv die might first be used with one rev die but if that reverse die gets ruined they might swap it with another so you might see the same obv/rev die paired with more than one obv/rev die in it's short life.

fiddle-fart · Veteran Member

then it is possible to have two different dies and two different
markers and two different etc.
ex.
I just looked at a 1963P cent of mine
obv. came up 1963P-1DO-001 class 6
yet the
rev. came up 1963P-1DR-001 class 2

how would you grade something like that?
would you use the lower grade?

Thanks
Mike

eagames · Expert Member

Firstly....
What you are doing is attributing not grading. Just trying to decide which if any die variety you might have.

Those dies (the obv listed as 1DO-001 and rev listed as 1DR-001) were not listed as being used together. It is possible that they were together but very unlikely. So it's more likely that one or both attributions are wrong (it's not 1DO-001 or 1DR-001) but it is possible that you found a different die thats not listed since lots of doubled dies show as a bar below the L.
Or you realy do have 1DO-001 but the reverse might just have strike doubling that made it look like 1DR-001.

So my advice is.... try posting pics of the obv and rev on your coin.

If your coin looks like 1DO-001 then look for the markers listed for it.

http://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1963&die_id=1963p1do001&die_state=mds

http://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1963&die_id=1963p1dr001&die_state=mds

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

I think that you are confusing grades with variety types.

First of all, while two dies (obverse and reverse) may start out at the same time in the coin press, they maybe changed independently of each other. So it is possible to see an early die state ( EDS) obverse and a late die state (LDS) reverse on a coin or visa - versa.

The die's state may or may not affect the coin's grade. Coins struck with a very late die state (VLDS) do not have an optimum appearance and thus are generally graded lower than coins seen in an early or mid die state. However, the coins appearance due to die state is only one of many criteria used in grading coins.

Do not confuse die state with die stage; they are two different things. While die state concerns itself with the age of the die, die stage concerns itself with the die markers seen in a particular die state of both the obverse and reverse dies. So, Stage "A" maybe a coin's obverse that is in EDS with a particular die gouge. Stage "B" maybe that same coin's obverse die in MDS with an added die gouge and Stage "C" maybe the same coin's obverse die in LDS with added die gouges (cracks, chips, scrapes, scratches, etc....). However, you can also find dies that may have a number of stages in just one die state; it is all dependent on the changes the die has had happen to it during its life as it progresses through its different states. A stage may also denote a changing of a die, either the reverse or obverse die. An easy way to remember the two is that stage deals with the coin (both obverse and reverse dies) while state deals with just the die itself.

Now, why all the fuss in keeping track of all these die gouges, etc ..... It is to help identify a coin with an anomaly (doubled die, trail die and RPM). Without this identification system, the idea of collecting variety coins would be tumultuous and chaotic at best.

Hope that this helps.

BJ Neff

Dick · Expert Member

Mike, it id a different type of detective work. Here we look for "clues" that identify the die, that made the coins. Each marker is a "clue", that can be relied on for this purpose. Like BJ says, it would be a very jumbled mess, because there woukld be nothing to rely on for a particular anomily in regards to any coin, denomination not withstanding. Some clues are so minor as to be below the minimum for inclusion in the data base, because of sheer numbers. Hope this helps.
Dick

fiddle-fart · Veteran Member

I'm gonna take it that "RPM" doesn't mean Rounds Per Minute Laughing

Bob P · Site Admin

If you find anyone who can rebound 100 times per minute...sign em up! Laughing

I guess if that was your way of asking what RPM stood for, it would be Re-Punched Mintmark.

fiddle-fart · Veteran Member

Thanks Bob
So many letters.... so many meanings Laughing

coppercoins · Site Admin

fiddle-fart: Cute name. Send your address to me and I will send you a copy of my book. Read it all the way through. You will learn quite a bit from it.

cd@coppercoins.com

cnladue · Veteran Member

i would like to buy one of your books!Can i please buy one?

fiddle-fart · Veteran Member

Then is it possible for the die markers not to have all the markers listed for a particular coin
this is what I'm looking at
[/url]http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=2001&die_id=2001p1do001&die_state=mds

this is what I got

any help appreciated
Thanks
Mike

Bob P · Site Admin

Mike,
Yes it possible that some coins may not have all the markers identified, and some also may have more. As a die wears, some of the older die markers may begin to wear off as well. In addition, new markers, such as die cracks, chips, etc may appear, and then get worse as time goes on. We try to put substantial markers on this site, but sometimes there are little to no markers available. If you've noticed, we try to put three distinct die states on the site when we can get them. Early die state (EDS), Middle die state (MDS) and late die state (LDS) all apply to a point in the striking process from when it was a new die, to when the die was retired. Sometimes, when a die breaks, or is worn too much, only that die will be replaced (ie: a reverse die only). In that case, the previous markers from earlier strikings would not be applicable for that die only. We try to annotate when a die was changed. We do this by diagnostics while doing attributions and are able to see a substantial difference, or a change in die state to an earlier state.

eagames · Expert Member

I always liked the analogy to cars.

EDS is like a new car, it will have some unique defects from manufacturing, it might have a slight imperfection or it might have the most perfect finish of all the cars in the batch.

MDS is like the car in middle age, the tires are worn and the paint finish is not as nice (some die wear and polish marks) and it has a few dings and bumps from normal use. If you look close it still mightshow the original unique defects it had when it was new.

LDS is like the cars last days, it might have a broken windshield (head crack) and looks much worse than when new but if you look close it still has the unique defects from the day it was EDS (they might be harder to see now) plus all the dings and bumps from its MDS life plus all the final damaged things that made you finaly retire it.

A key thing is that markers get added and some old ones slowly get harder to see. Be careful of strange things, for example they can replace a rev die then all of a sudden the obverse has a reverse with different markers and die state.