1973D "center point on 3 often confused as a doubled d

[pennyhound]

Well it just maybe ...

Check this out:http://pennyhoundshomeweb.com/1973D%20Unlisted%20DDO/1973d.htm

What ya think? Looks like a MDO (Master Die Obverse) as to many of these come from the same bag, (and just started going through it), but still the fact remains, that it just maybe a doubled die, (all be it a MDO) looks like it to me!

You have to tilt the coin from about 6 - 7K (back of Lincoln's vest) @ an angle to even see it, but I got pictures of it for yas.
As you come down the page of pictures the coin is being tilted from apx. 40 degrees back to being level. (sorry for the poor pictures but it's late and wanted to post them)

Looking for those different reverses myself at times, but happened on this and thought I'd share it with all. (yes if I find any of those mis-matched reverse/s, I will let you know on here)

[lucky2]

Pennyhound: It will be interesting to see what our resident pros have to say about your 1973D. I have a bag also that I am about half way thru checking and have passed on anything that I have found that required tilting or turning to see the doubling. I hope I am wrong. I am still stuck on the raised and rounded senerio for doubled dies and that seems to be wrong on atleast the modern Lincolns, (single hub versions). lucky2

[coppercoins]

As best I can see your photos they appear to be of a normal 1973 cent. The odd 3 digit is the same on all of them, that's just part of the design. The mintmark is one of the ones punched with a damaged punch - it's not an RPM either.

[pennyhound]

Noted (Mr D) and just thought this would be a good conversation piece ... (have added link to original page, were these have been rejected as such to one of the ref. pages on the subject of the RPM)

[pennyhound]

Well it's not all that dramatic but look again at that page there, got another "1973D" there at the bottom of that page.

Looks like it is well worn (LDS - Obv) but ... well see what ya'll have to say about the second one there.

[lucky2]

penneyhound: I hope like crazy that Chuck and Bob will say that is a new Doubled Die but I doubt it very much. I have found that if you can rotate the coin in the light and the doubleing goes away or if you cannot see it with a 10 power glass it will not be classified as a Doubled Die. I am on your side on this but have been beaten back many times with the same images.~lucky2

[Bob P]

Hi Guys.....I'll tell you what! Lucky2 makes it seem like I sit here with a big old 2 X 4 and beat him with it every time he sends me a coin (had to say that Robert...I loved the way you said you've been beaten back with our attributions)
Anyway....I looked at the other set of pictures, and I am not convinced at all that it is a doubled die. Mr. Lucky2 had it right when he mentioned the raised rounded type versus flat, shelf like images. The doubling you see is not indicative of hub doubling, but doubling made during the striking process.
To my knowledge, there have been no doubled dies for 1973D. Of course, that can change at any time. I did get to see a 1973P doubled die obverse about 3 weeks ago, and you should have no problems differentiating the two known varieties. Die #1 shows a decent but close spread on LIB and IN GOD WE, and Die #2 has some nice extra thickness on the motto and LIBERTY.
Keep looking guys...new varieties are found because collectors are persistent and knowledgeable. I promise I won't beat Lucky2 anymore.

[pennyhound]

Lucky2 ...

The secound set of pictures there, looks like another MDO.

Am begining to wander if that is why not a single 1973D (DDO) is listed for these, cause it appears thy all (least the ones I have come across thus far) are all MDO's.

The reason I posted was because I read that there maybe some different type reverse/s, die/s that may have the reverse/s of 72 or maybe 74 in the FG/s on the reverse/s.

In his book Looking Through Lincoln Cents ... Chronology of a Series by Charles D. Daughtrey, (page 240 & 241) he states:

"The 3 digit in the year has an odd shape which is sometimes mistaken for a doubled die. The center of the numeral exhibits a split and the edge sometimes looks doubled, depending on the condition of the hub when the die was created. This is normal, and should be disregaded. This is the only year of cents on which this particular 3 digit was used."

He go/s on to say "The initals on the reverse of the cent for 1972 ... 1973 and 1974" are quite different, which thy are, also noted in the The Authoritative Reference on Lincoln Cents by John Wexler and Kevin Flynn, page 60. "1973 Reverse Hub Design Change ... In 1973, the reverse of the Lincoln cent was modified. The initials FG were dramatically increased in size. Some of the serifs on the letters were also brought to a point."

Thy also list a 1973 Doubled Die Obverse Pg 236,
(LCDDO-001) ... Cross Referenced: LCDDO-1973-01 CONECA 1-O-V, Class V, Pivoted Hub Doubling. Doubling seen on IN GOD WE, and the LIB of LIBERTY. Die Markers: Reverse, Short scratch north northeast from from lower right Memorial.

CONECA list/s:

1973 DDO-001
Designation: 1-O-V-CW from K-5

Description: Light spread on IN GOD WE TRUST and LIBERTY

Markers:UVC-00 DMR-00
Stage A: Obverse and Reverse are EDS
Stage B: MDS (unconfirmed)
Stage C: LDS (unconfirmed)
Reported by: Unknown


1973 DDO-002
Designation: 2-O-II-E+VI

Description: Light spread and extra thickness on IN GOD WE TRUST, LIBERTY, and date

Markers:UVC-00 DMR-00
Stage A: Light die scratches East-West on Obverse – EDS
Reverse is EDS

Stage B: Die scratches on Obverse worn away – MDS
Reverse is MDS

Stage C: LDS (unconfirmed)

The old listing from The CONECA U.S. DOUBLED DIE MASTER LISTING Edited by James W. Wiles, 1994

1973 ... 3-O-VIII (Doubling evident SE as extra G of GOD)
1973 ... 4-O-IIC+VI (Light spread on LIBERTY, IN GOD WE TRUST and 97 of DATE)

Looking at The Lincoln Cent Doubled Die by John A. Wexler, 1984 pg 200 & 201 ... (all avaibable references) the doubling on these are the same as in my pictures ... I contend thy are all Master Doubled Die/s (thus far anyways) and that the so called odd shaped 3 digit referenced above is not odd at all, but rather a Doubled or Trippled digit 3.

Or we all need to do more study on the 1973/s, I don't know for sure but what do ya'll think?

[pennyhound]

Bob P ... just read your post ... humm could be, but still looking and who know's ... maybe, would be nice to see some better pictures of the two listed 1973/s, think somebody could post to this thread please?

LOL on the beating also ... sweet he thought of it like that hay?

[Bob P]

Wish I had the 1973P DDOs to get pictures of. I saw them at a small coin show, but the man was asking $52.00 a piece...for XF specimens to boot! That's just a bit too much for me to put out on minor doubled dies.
I will see if I can get him to lend me the coins so that I can take pictures and put them on the site. Maybe by having his name on the site, it will entice him to do so.
If anyone out there has the two listed 1973P varieties, let me know and we'll get together about doing photos..OK?
As far as the reverse on the 73 issues, I have been looking for a mis-matched die pair for years. There is always the possibility that the mint may have used the reverse of a 72 at the beginning of the year, or the reverse of a 74 at the end of the year. Sounds a little far fetched...but once again, you never know!

[pennyhound]

That's what I am hoping for myself in the Denver ones.

While the bags are not marked (as far as the date bagged ...)
outside of the year and mint, I did find in the first bag I went through ... a note marked: 2-6-73 with a 40 under it and a 28 something on it ... I'll post it also so ya can see it. (I'll put on the same page as above so it's all together, was in the bag with first pictures, so it will be at the bottom of that post)

Is this normal for this to happen? (someone who bagged them maybe)

[Bob P]

Pennyhound...
That's a first for me. Was the bag sealed before you opened it? If it was, then having a handwritten note inside of it is the first time I had ever heard of it. If the bag was filled at a bank, or Brinks or something like that, then I can understand that a bit more. Either way, that's a new one on me.

[pennyhound]

Mint Sewn Bag ... I opened it myself.

Like we all have said, ... never know what you'll find when you open a mint sewn bag.

That was a first for me also, hence, the question.

[Gabe]

Good luck with the bag. Im pretty sure that after looking at a couple, youll get a good idea of what is left inside. I would look for errors and other types of stuff, as you said, you never know what you are going to find...

[coppercoins]

I'm having a hard time following what's going on in this thread, so I'll state myself as clearly as possible once more.

1. The odd shape to the center of the 3 in the date is like that on ALL 1973 cents and is NOT master die doubling, it is simply a part of the design. That's just how the 3 was shaped that year.

2. That I know of there is NO master die doubling for any 1973 cent. Whatever it is you are seeing is not hub doubling, and is not master die doubling either. I can't see anything in the photos so I cannot help without seeing actual coins.

3. The reverse design change has nothing to do with the obverse other than so far there are no known examples of the 1972 style reverse on 1973 cents, and likewise no known examples of 1973 style reverse on 1974 cents. Simply stated, as far as anyone knows, the 1973 is a one year reverse type that has a slightly different design than 1972 or 1974 cents...and this had nothing to do with any master die doubling.

Lucky - I don't know what's going on, but I can tell you one thing. If they are doubled dies I call them so, and if they are not, I'm not going to call them so to make people happy. This is a study, as you are well aware. I am trying to publish useful information for all to use, as is Bob and Coop. We don't reject anyone's coins just because the coins belong to that person. We call a doubled die a doubled die and a mintmark variety a mintmark variety, and nothing else.

To all....quit squinting and trying so hard to turn coins into doubled dies. They either are or aren't, and no amount of squinting is going to turn them into what they aren't. Splurge and buy a couple of examples of doubled dies so you will know what you are looking for. That's what I did about fifteen years ago and it worked. From that moment on it clicked and I knew what was and wasn't worth messing with. Believe me, you will be far more rewarded by having seen what's worth bothering with before digging through thousands of coins studying them over and over again trying to find something wrong with them. A doubled die should be something you can spot in less than ten seconds under decent lighting and magnification. If you have to really try hard to see it, it isn't there.

I don't want to sound harsh, and I don't want to piss people off. But you know...sometimes when someone tells a person what they have there isn't worth messing with it's best just to drop it and move on. There are three known doubled die obverses and no known doubled die reverses for 1973 cents. Two of the three known doubled die obverses are on P mint cents and the other is an S mint proof. All three are readily noticeable under decent lighting with a 16X loupe. None of them are hiding underneath the letters and none of them take a special angle of lighting to see. There are no known doubled dies on D minted 1973 cents to date, and millions of them have been observed. Not to say there isn't something out there waiting to be discovered, but if you do, you'll know it. It will pop out at you when you least expect it, and you won't have to stare at the coin to force it to show itself to you. Like I said before, it's either there or it's not. You'll get a lot farther learning to look and move on, and not stare at every flyspeck hoping for the impossible. You'll see far more coins in far less time, and will come much closer to being rewarded with something collectible if you do two things:

1. Stick to dates for which there's already something known at first. This will help you find something that's more obvious and of better value. Rummaging through stuff like 1973D will only frustrate you.

2. Look at each side of each coin for no more than a few seconds. If you don't see anything right away, toss it and grab another coin. One thing that helps when searching through bags and bank wrapped rolls is to pay attention to the markers. Learn the markers on the ten or so die pairings you're dealing with and look for the markers first once you've been over one coin well enough to know it doesn't have doubling on it. I can guarantee you that all examples of a given die will either ALL be doubled dies or NONE will be doubled dies.

3. Learn to overlook the design elements that look odd, and learn to overlook master die doubling in the years it occurs. The only way to learn these things and what they look like is to study a number of coins before assuming you have something of value. If you only find it on a couple of coins out of 500, then you may have something valuable. If you find it on 70 coins out of 100, I can guarantee you that whatever it is, it is already known, not rare, and not valuable.

Now...learn to take what I say as instruction and not as some form of chastization. I want everyone here to succeed at finding what they are here for...but over and over and over on the same subject that is NOT a doubled die or RPM is a waste of effort. Keep looking. Keep trying. Just don't spend too much time on one thing. You'll burn yourself out finding nothing and end up frustrated and out of a hobby. Remember that all of this is there to have fun, and to learn.