Will the WI 'Extra Leaf' 25c DVs stand the test of time?

[Russellhome]

Now that the hype has died down on this controversial pair of die varieties, where do you stand on the issue of whether these are legitimate varieties worthy of collecting vs. just die damage and should be worth just a few bucks as a novelty item?

I read all the arguments for and against these "Leaf High" and "Leaf Low" die varieties. Personally - I thought they were cool varieties -- but to some extent, I agreed with the nay-sayers in so much as the coins were over-priced for what they were. Prices were out of my league. But as the hype faded, prices came down. They are not dirt cheap -- but I took the plunge and bought an AU example of the "Leaf Low" version. Now that I have seen one in-hand, I must say that I am more impressed than I thought I would be. That Extra Leaf is really bold -- and aside from the fact that in penetrates the regular leaf in an unnatural way - it does more or less look like an extra leaf. IMO - these two varieties will stand the test of time. Like the 3 legged buffalo, I think these will remain popular and I don't think most collectors care what the cause for the variety was. Anyway - here is a photo of the one I bought...




I did own a 2005 'Speared Bison' nickel for a while. I took it in trade. I was not impressed with that hyped up coin. The so-called 'spear' die gouge was very shallow and not easy to see. Yes - it was an unusually long gouge and I find no fault with others who like it. It was not for me and sold it. In contrast, I like this WI 'Leaf Low' -- and may just buy the 'Leaf-high' version if prices get a little lower.

[eagames]

I think about as you described, it had too much hype but still in the end it's a neat conversation piece. Also the statehood serries sort of needs something to spice it up.

The initial prices were too high but it has some value.

[Bob P]

I believe it's been reported that the high/low leaf state quarters were actually made by a mint employee. My personal opinion is that way too much money has changed hands for questionable coins. If you were able to get big bucks for every die crack, chip, gouge, polishing, and worn out coin out there...we would all be rich, and would hardly have to look very long before finding something. The speared bison was a joke as is the majority of the state quarter 'errors' that are nothing more than cracks or chips. As the saying goes....'A fool and his money are soon parted'

[eagames]

Yes Bob nailed it! Many are mostly hyped up gouges or cracks.

If the leafs were added by a mint employee maybe that's better than a normal defect but still not earth shaking.

I was just reading about this one.... it's an error or not an error made by the mint on purpose to catch a penny thief that worked at the mint in 1875.

http://www.worthpoint.com/blog-entry/dot-1875-cent-reverse-secret-mark

[cladking]

I can't undestand why anyone wouldn't like these.

To each his own but these have everything going for them. It doesn't matter what the market values them at; they are what they are.

[Dick]

Not to be a "party-pooper", but If you look at the small part of the "leaf", that goes from the natural leaf aND THE COB OF CORN, YOU WILL NOTICE THAT THE "EXTRA LEAF" goes thru the other leaf, or husk. It just don't grow that way! As most have agreed, that some employee "had a hand in the dirty deed. maybe they were asked if something like that could be dione. Curiosity killed the cat, so who knows?
Dick

[Russellhome]

I don't really see the WI 'Extra Leaf' quarters as being in the same camp as die chips, die cracks, excessive wear, or even die clash marks. All these things happen after the dies starts churning out coins. We all know that people sell "Error" junk with cute names on eBay all the time -- and it annoys all of us in the hobby. But the WI 25c "Leaf" varieties are not the junk we see everyday. I'm sure if a Lincoln cent was found with a gouge that big and bold, we would not be throwing it in the discard pile. For comparison, I did 'same scale' photos of two other reported die gouge coins in the MN quarters…


I thought the MN varieties interesting enough to pay a few bucks each for – but in terms of scale and visibility – they are not in the same league as the WI leaf low die dent.

The fact that mint employee most likely added these marks on purpose might even add to the intrigue of these two varieties. One might even consider these a distant cousin to the 1913 Liberty nickel -- another case of mint employees behaving badly. I think it also helps that the Mint admits to discovering the anomalies during production and pulled the dies early in their life cycle. So collectors know that these WI 25c varieties are in a somewhat limited supply.

My intent in this thread was not to rehash the old arguments anyway. I'm sure those opinions haven't changed. Similarly, I've heard more than one DV pro scoff at the 3 legged buffalo nickel -- pointing out that it is just the result of a die polishing blunder. Or even the 1922 no "D" 1c being nothing more than a filled mint mark on the die. But an individual’s poor opinion concerning the variety does not make it worth any less in the marketplace. I know there could be any number of other such errors in the past 100 years that could have taken off as these two popular varieties did - but for what-ever reason, they did not. It does not have to make sense -- as someone put it earlier -- it is what it is.

Back to the WI 25c varieties, I do think they are a product of timing as much as anything else. When the WI 25c varieties first appeared, there was NOTHING happening in the State Quarters as far as die varieties go. So it became a red hot story -- a frenzy in the market place -- and unfortunately, many people paid way too much for these coins during the peak of the hype. If the WI 25c errors were discovered today - after the myriad of MN & OR 25c DDR discoveries and the 'Plain Edge' dollars, they probably made a 'Collectors Clearinghouse' article in CW and little more. But what is done can't be undone. The WI ‘Leaf High’ and ‘Leaf Low’ varieties became that rare phenomenon that exploded out of the hobby – out of coin collecting – into the general population. The ‘cat is out of the bag’ and these are now popular with broad scope of collectors (mostly outside the Die Variety and Error coin hobby).

So to put the question another way, in 50 years - will the 2004 WI "Extra Leaf" varieties still be in the Red Book as a key variety for the period -- or will it eventually drop off the radar and be forgotten?

IMO - I think the WI Extra Leaf varieties are substantial enough and hit with enough force (as far as press and popularity goes) to 'stick' and will be around as a popular variety for decades to come. Many DV hobbyists will still be scoffing at it 50 years from now – but never-the-less it will still command a much higher premium over other coins with similar anomalies from the period. Not taking into account the reported low mintage of these varieties, I buy the argument that they should command a lower premium in the $10-$20 range at best. But I was willing to shell out $70 for my example. Was I foolish? I guess only time will tell.

Sorry if I got carried away a little here. I did not intend to write a book.

[Bob P]

Ken,
I agree completely with what you've said and I am certainly not discounting the collectibility of any coin from anyone who wants to own it. What I am talking about is the way some unscrupulous folks are making these things more than they are. There are plenty of great looking gouges and cracks that make for interesting additions to one's collection, and I have kept a few myself.

However Ken, I certainly didn't imply that the Wisconsin "extra leaf" was something we should just throw in the trash. In my opinion they are pretty neat...no matter how they came to be, and they may well stand the test of time. Much money has changed hands because of 'what it looks like'...not what it actually is. You are right in that the past is the past, but it still has not kept folks trying to pass them off as something they are not. They are NOT extra leaves, and as such that terminology should be discontinued. Even the TPG services and the Red Book use that terminology, and that is wrong. In my mind, they lose credibility by publishing something that is inaccurate. (although the Red Book does say the 'variety' is an uncertain one)

As I have said all along, I am fiercely against anyone taking someones money on false pretenses. It amounts to theft in my book, and even the uneducated collector needs to be protected. This a battle I can not win individually, and my personal opinions don't amount to much to most folks, but if I can keep a couple of folks from making a mistake based on inaccurate or misleading information, then I have accomplished something.

A collector such as yourself who is knowledgeable about what it is they are buying, does so because they want to, and has made that decision based on information and education and is not the person I am talking about. Both buyers and sellers can lack the information they need to make sound decisions on buys and sales. As a collecting community, I think we owe it to them and ourselves to try and point them in the right direction.

[Russellhome]

I agree 100%. But I think the "Extra Leaf Low" and "Extra Leaf High" designations for this WI quarter -- although wrong -- have been used too long and will remain the names for the varieties.

I thought it interesting that NGC and PCGS slabs label the 2005 5c 'Speared Bison' differently. NGC attributes it correctly as a 'Long Die Gouge' while PCGS went with the pet name 'Speared Bison'. As it turns out, there are other 2005 bison nickel varieties with long die gouges -- that are not the specific variety known as the 'Speared Bison'. I suspect that NGC would label these the same as the 'Speared Bison' version -- which opens another can of worms. Such error varieties are not given file IDs because they are not doubled dies. So confusion over how to name or ID each variety of a major gouge or a dent remains unresolved.

[Dick]

Ken, I agree with you, and BTW, I have one of the "fishing pole" variety, along with my date-roll collection of the States Series. It is in the "P-D" collection.
Dick

[mikediamond]

I find the Wisconsin "extra leaf" quarters to be quite appealing, whatever the origin of these curved die dents. I think they will have enduring appeal. That said, they are not the only curved die dents to be found among recent coins. Nor are they the only curved die dents associated with pressure ridges. Nor are they the longest. But their relief and location make them standouts. Still, I prefer to buy their no-name relatives at a dirt-cheap price.

Their status as intentional die alterations has NOT been established beyond a reasonable doubt, despite claims to the contrary.

[GarryN]

Eagle Eye Rare Coins, by virtue of the fact that it is located in Tucson, established a relationship with Bob Ford, the discoverer of the Extra Leaf quarters. They have been marketing them since. There is a notice on the attached page that says Chris Pilliod submitted an article in the Numismatist that will "prove without a doubt" that the Extra Leaf was purposely created by someone at the Denver Mint. Does anyone know if this article has appeared yet?

http://www.indiancent.com/wiquarter.htm

[mikediamond]

Chris' article appeared but proved only the following:

1. That the extra leaves were die dents. (not unique)
2. That the low leaf was probably inflicted while the die was in a softened state. (not unique)
3. That the low leaf was formed by two impacts from the same object.
4. That the high leaf was formed by a similar, and possibly identical object.

The circumstantial evidence for intent, while suggestive, is not definitive.

[GarryN]

thanks Mike! Your objectivity is very refreshing. As John Adams said "Facts are stubborn things." If anyone has not read the John Adams biography by David McCullough, in my opinion it is the best bio I have ever read.

[KurtS]

GarryN, that's one of my favorite biographies. I found a new respect for this often forgotten and/or maligned statesman. By contrast, how do you think he paints B.Franklin in the same book?

In light of what Mike Diamond provided, I'm glad I didn't drop $$ for a MS slabbed copy. Btw, just what is up with the cob of corn on this quarter? It looks more like a grenade than produce.