A couple more 'State Quarter' finds

Russellhome · Veteran Member

Here are two more finds from searching circulated quarter rolls.

The first is a very nice double earlobe DDO on a 2005 P MN quarter. The quarter has taken a beating -- but it is one of the better 'State Quarter' double earlobes that I have seen. This one really stands out. It looks very much like CDDO-002 that Crawford reported in DVN issue #5.

The second is a possible DDO on a 2001 P North Carolina quarter. Billy Crawford listed a 2001 P NC quarter DDO that looks much like it (also shown in DVN issue #5). The doubling is what appears to be 'extra hair' lines behind the ear. I tested for a clash -- but the reverse design that would clash in this area does not seem to fit. IMO - it is a DDO or some "WI Extra Leaf" like die gouges (or dents).

The quarter has some wear - so some of the hair detail (which could represent the source of the doubling) may be worn away. What ever it is, it is bold and easly spotted.

Here is a closeup showing the 3 'hair-like' lines behind the ear...

So what do you think? DDO or something else?

GarryN · Expert Member

I would have to compare your North Carolina with another one. The North Carolina has more space between the back of the neck and the hair line than the Minnesota. Do you see that? Maybe there was a design change somewhere in-between?

Dick · Expert Member

I thought those were cob-webs. Wink

Dick

Russellhome · Veteran Member

eagames · Expert Member

Ken,

That's hard to explain, to be a DDO the only things I can see making it are hair curls but they're far off and I'd expect the ear to show up doubled too.

I have a feeling it's gouges but they're so rounded and look like part of a design so I would send it to an expert to see what they think. Another thing you might try is look for another like it if you have enough to look through from different sources.

Smile

Russellhome · Veteran Member

I did a little more horsing around with overlays tonight. About the only nearby place where the hair lines are fine enough to be a potential source are on the ponytail below and right of center.

If this is the source, it would involve rotation and offset in order to make those marks as they appear on my coin.

This overlay puts the secondary ear inside the curl in front of the ear -- so any doubling that may have existed there could have been obscured by the main 'squeeze'.

Above is the image of a BU SMS 'State' quarter - an early die state showing all the detail. I cut a section of hair from the pony tail, rotated it a bit and pasted it in the area affected on the potential DDO. It fits good - having the appropriate amount of space between the lines. Perhaps this is the source and it is a DDO.

One more thing I should point out... the absolute center of the design is well below the earlobe - just behind the jaw. So when rotated counter-clockwise, the area I show as the potential source would lay just to the right of the area where the raised marks are. From at that position, the offset required to put the marks behind the ear is not unreasonable. But as I show above - both rotation and offset are required for my theory of 'the source' to hold water.

I know this is a stretch -- but it is fun to try and figure out.

BTW: Wexler wants to see it. So I will have an expert opinion in a few weeks.

Dick · Expert Member

The three curved lines, directly behind, and directly above the left vertical arrow, are the ones I referred to as, "cob-webs". Upon later observation, I noticed they are a party of the design, and properly placed. The Overlay show this. I was not aware I could "pin-point" to that degree.
Dick

Dick · Expert Member

The three curved lines, directly behind, and directly above the left vertical arrow, are the ones I referred to as, "cob-webs". Upon later observation, I noticed they are a party of the design, and properly placed. The Overlay show this. I was not aware I could "pin-point" to that degree.
Dick

GarryN · Expert Member

I took a look at one North Carolina quarter from home yesterday and it has a similar characteristic at the junction of the hair and neck. Two horizontal lines. I am using a 10x loupe and I do not see the third that is the smaller at the top on the above photo. I compared that to two Mass quarters and a WV quarter and an Arizona quarter. None of those have the horizontal lines.

Dick · Expert Member

Gerry, I just looked at the enlarged photo, and the small insert. I noticed that there is a very similar shape to the areas that are colored. I believe that there is doubling, and the scenario is very siomilar to the one that was the center of controversy, some time back, regarding the statue, and beard lines in odd places. Bob, I'm sure you recall which ona I refer to
Dick

Russellhome · Veteran Member

Garry: Can you do some photos of yours? I'd like to see it. The version Billy Crawford found sounds like the one you describe. Here is the clipping from Crawfords Die Variety News #5...

On this one, the marks are a little farther north - so there is no room for the 3rd line. Note also that the little bump off to the right of the lowest curl (from my coin) does not appear to be there on Billy's find. Looks like a different die varety to me.

There are other causes for raised lines on a coin that are not part of the original design. I've seen some pretty deep die scrapes and dents. But other than the WI 'extra leaf' die dent - these other types of marks look very different from what I'm seeing here on the NC quarter.

I have yet to see a die clash on a 2001 NC quarter. But the area (near as I can tell) that would clash behind the ear (shown in red below) could potentially leave horizontal lines. But I would also expect to see some other remnants under the ear and jawline. That is what I have seen in other state quarter clashes where there are lots of details at the center of the reverse design.

Dick · Expert Member

I couldn't edit my last, so I'll change the comment: The colored areas only look alike, because the shape that is colored. There is no way that specific area could be placed behind the ear, and not leave a mark of some kind on the ear-lobe. The small "lump" looks like it might be a die chip.
Dick

Russellhome · Veteran Member

Dick

The colored areas look alike because they are exactly the same image. Here is what I did...

1) I took a photo of the SMS quarter. It has no marks behind the ear -- it is just a normal quarter.

2) I copied a section of hair on the pony tail - larger than the area in question behind the ear (area circled in red on the image below).

3) I pasted this copy of the hair section as an overlay, moved it behind the ear and rotated it to approx. the correct orientation of the marks on my NC quarter. I changed the color of the overlaying image - to make it stand out from the background.

4) I erased parts of the overlaying image to leave only the hair that would fit between the ear and pony tail (plus the little bump further east). In other words, I trimmed down the overlay image to match the areas where bumps appeared on my coin. The highpoints on that hair segment proved to be a pretty good match for the shape and spacing of the raised marks on my NC quarter.

5) I then made another copy of the trimmed down overlay image. I unrotated it and put it back in the location where I copied it from (leaving the color the lighter shade).

6) Finally, I pasted an overlay of the actual NC quarter in the lower left of the image for comparison. The extra stuff on the quarter in the lower left is as I photographed it. The extra stuff on the larger photo above is of a hair segement that I copied, colored, and moved. I did not resize or stretch the image to fit. It is only moved and rotated.

This image illustrates the process...

You may be correct - as far as it being impossible for that part of the hair to be the source for the marks behind the ear. I can't explain how it might have happened. The only thing I was able to prove was that the hair in the pony tail to the southeast of the marks are a good match as a potential source for the doubling.

Also - I believe the marks DID pass through the area that is now Washington's ear (i.e. the marks were made before the main hubbing). But that ear is very high relief compared to the area behind the ear. The ear image on the hub would have press right through those marks that occupied its spot on the die. So the 'extra hair' disappears into the ear just like the 'Extra Leaf' on the WI quarter passes through the actual leaf.

Dick · Expert Member

I have looked all around a fairly large area, to see if there is any iother anomily, that would co-relate to this area, and aid in the identification as to the source, but I can't find a thing. No indication of a clash, so I don't know. Maybe some "outside help". I look at the area, and then reverse the curvature to "see" the face of the die. That spot "lends itself to mischief", if you klnow what I meaan.
Dick

Russellhome · Veteran Member

Searching more circulated quarter rolls tonight, I found another anomaly behind the ear on a 2001 P NC quarter. However, this one appears to be the result of a die clash.

I suspected that a clash would produce lines behind the ear. But the lines are faint, thin, and straight. Plus - there are some other clash remnants in the dip between the neck and jaw.

So from what I see here, the 'Extra hair' NC quarter from the original post does not appear to be the result of a die clash.