Single Squeeze Dies

[lucky2]

What is the opinion of the Doubled Die Collector on the matter of Single Squeeze Doubled Dies? I know its there and recognized as a Doubled Die. Smitty the finder of the latest two varieties of 2004D Single Squeeze Doubled Dies is a friend of mine and by no way do I want to trash his sale on ebay but is it really ligit. Are the Dies really Doubled or is this a creation caused by single squeeze and movement during the strike. I am having a very hard time justifying what I have seen and although it may be good for the hobby on the surface is it really a good thing. Is there ever a chance the Mint would let someone inspect all the dies involved. If the Doubleing is found on the Die no matter what the reason I will belive until then I will be a very hesitant collector of this type material A Doubled Die is reproducable on every strike and to this point I have not seen this happening with the single squeeze coins. One of the reasons for this question is that I opened a roll of 1959P mint coins last nite and having the split serif single squeeze coins on my mind I found split serifs on the first 10 coins I looked at. All were different. I stopped at that point to think about what I had found. In years past no one would have ever found these as I am using a 30 power scope. If they had found this by chance it would have been discounted as some sort of strike doubleing. I guess My next project is to see if I can find duplicates in this roll of at least one or two of the coins. Does anyone have an opinion they wish to express.~lucky2

[Bob P]

Hi Robert...
I think I can at least share some insight on this intriguing subject. (You know me...I always have an opinion).
The single squeeze method was supposed to eliminate the doubled dies caused by multiple hubbings. Why are we now seeing evidence of doubled dies? I don't think anyone knows for sure. Sure...it could be movement as the dies are hubbed...but the other clubs are marketing them as Class IV (Offset hub doubling). There can be no denying that the impressions definitely shown the characteristics that we already know about. Extra thickness, split serifs, separation lines etc. Could it be that the dies are not being hubbed just once? Maybe they are telling us it's a single squeeze, but if the impression is not heavy enough, and does not deliver the desired results, who's to say that they don't sqeeze it again? Kinda like trial strikes on coins...but this being on the dies themselves. I know it's a shot in the dark, but I can't see some of the doubled dies being produced today as being from a shifted hubbing. That's my opinion, and I'm sure it won't be long before someone shoots it down. My point is that everybody is forced to believe what the mint tells them. We don't have the luxury of being there to observe the process ourselves. The mint even denies now that the recent discoveries are doubled dies, but don't give any rationale for what's happening with them. Anyway...I personally believe that maybe they are not all being hubbed using the single squeeze method.

As far as your 1959 coins go, you need to remember that the mint marks here hand punched back then. It is very possible that every one you looked at was indeed a different RPM. Some of the split serifs are so minor that they are not listable, and if it take a 30X scope to see them, then it's probably not worth putting too much into it. Another possiblity is a bad punch. There have been a few of those out there. It seems very easy to believe that a person with a hammer and a punch can make multiple strikes rather easily. 1960D and 1961D are great examples of what a shaky hand or bad aim can do.
I also don't think it can be talked about in the same conversation as a doubled die, because thay are two completely different things.
One other thing to try and remember. You stated that you are just not seeing the doubled dies reproduced on every strike. Well, we can't say that for sure unless we find a coin with a doubled die, and another that is not, and both exhibit the same exact marking. Remember that there are billions of coins being produced each year. If some of them got out, there is a great possiblity that other will be found over time. Considering that fact that the doubled dies found recently are also being found in later die states, that pretty much guarantees that there are some to be found. Don't be hesitant about collecting anything. When you are finally satisfied that your discoveries are worthless, then throw them back in the spend pile. The important thing to remember is that you keep searching. Don't get discouraged because the day that you do...you will miss something spectacular. It always happens that way.
We tend to get a little complacent when the search doesn't produce much. I have gone through rolls I had searched previously and found things I missed...Including a 1909 doubled die reverse. Kinda makes me wonder where my head was at when I looked at that coin the first 16 times

[lucky2]

Well and good Bob but you missed one point. I was not talking about D mint coins. The roll I have here is 1959 Philly and most of the doubleing is found on the reverse. Split serifs in the word Pluribus Unum in different areas. Split serifs in the word Cent. less often in the word One or America but they show up at times also. I can take one roll of 50 coins and show you at least one photograph of a split serif on each coin. Then its the Obverse turn. The inner lower ear shows doubleing the eye shows doubleing as do all other elements. Not on all coins everytime but inclusive of the whole roll. Pick an element and I can pick a coin from that roll that will show you doubleing.~lucky2

[JRocco]

Hi lucky. Just my 2 cents worth on single squeeze doubled die varieties. I think there is a little bit of uncertainty as Bob suggests. I understand the theory behind the moving or 'flexing' that may occur during the squeeze, and for all its worth, it sounds logical. I also think that variety collectors tend to find some comfort in the fact that there may still be an area for us to search in this modern era of the single squeeze minting process.
As for the 59P Lincoln's you are referring to, I would really like to see some pics showing the varying degrees of doubling you are speaking of. Great thought provoking topic by the way.

[lucky2]

just for the sake of arguement here is a photo. The split Serif is on the lower right T in Cent on both coins. the problem is that the photo of the left is a 2004D Lincoln and the one on the right is a 1959 Philly cent. Considering the age seperation of the two coins and taking into account my crummy photos these two are the same.~lucky2
http://groups.msn.com/VarietyCoins/rkc.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=860

[Bob P]

I apologize for wandering off track Robert. I thought you were talking about the mintmarks on 59D cents. I assumed that of course, because if I had read your post again, I would have seen that you were talking about 59P cents.
I guess I would have to really sit back and look more closely at the 1959P coins to see what you are talking about. I can see from the pic you posted about the split serif. I guess I don't get into any coin under that much magnification though. If I can't see it at 10X, then it probably is too minor to bother with. I know that doesn't satisfy your question though. I am sure that if we get into 30X on any coin, we would be able to find something. My next question to you is 'does that same split you show on your pic extend to other devices on the coin?' If it does, then you do in fact have evidence of a doubled die. Once again, we get into the strength of the doubling determining its collectibility. As I said once before Robert, we don't want to make more of the variety hobby than that which is educational, fun and collectable. It seems we will never have all the answers because we are not a part of the minting process, and can not scrutinize it. I don't have the answers for everything, (I don't think anyone does) but I do enjoy looking through coins on an almost daily basis. When I find something interesting, and I don't know the answers, I do like you did, and ask questions. Unfortunately, in this case, I can't add anything more to what I have already said.

[lucky2]

Just to let you know that I am not totally crazy (yet) my statements about every coin I looked at being Doubled is false. When I picked up where I left off the next morning I could find no doubleing. Very frustrated I went back to the coins I first looked at and sure enough they were still doubled the same way I had remembered them. The rest were not so I guess I got lucky and hit a whole batch at once which always scares me. Anytime I find more than one in a row I worry about finding 50,000 of them. I guess that does make me a little stupid dosn't it.

[Bob P]

NO

[Gabe]

Lucky- I have seen similar effects on 1960D cents, especially of the area of ONE CENT on the reverse. I got tired of finding so many of them, I just ignored them.