Multi off center struck 1998 reverse

[neutreno]

I was bold enough to stick my hand in my wife's change jar. My son ratted me out, but hopefully she will forgive me. She has been dumping her change in it for a while. Yes this is a real coin and all my local club can say is "that's interesting". Nobody can tell me what it might be worth.

How many Off-Centers do you see! All help would be appreciated.



Here is the Obverse of same coin. All lettering and date slightly doubled. Bush or die scratch extending out of back of head, and Memorial columns faintly seen lower left of base of head.

[coppercoins]

I'm not sure what you are calling 'off center' - an off center cent is one that is struck partially on and partially off the blank.

If you are seeing columns on the obverse (which I cannot see), then you have a die clash.

But off center I don't see anything.

[neutreno]

1. Entire memorial Steps diagonal on Right side of coin off memorial proper Rotation point appears to be Designer's Initials.
2. Die scratches inside columns 10, 11, 12 are not die scratches, they are more steps.
3.. Faint Memorial columns from CENT to base of memorial proper.
4. O in ONE can be seen under/ in left bushes above ONE Proper and rotated aprox. 90 degrees.

Unless my eyes are decieving me and the scanner! If any of these are not off center then what are they?

[neutreno]

Will try to change Brightness and contrast to show them better. Sorry for the poor first attempt.

[neutreno]

Hope this helps point out what I am seeing on reverse.
until i can get better with scanning.



Here is what I See on the obverse that should not be there.

[Dick]

nutrino, If you refer to the slight remnants of a die clash, on the OBV, they will be likely what you see in the area of the "Y".. marks you have indicated tell me it isd a multi clashed coin,. the marks around "eye-level", are the base of the memorial bldy. On the REV, there are what looks to be marks, (going from about K-4, to K10),. These most likely are marks from the feeder arm. What you indicate as , "an "O" of one, rotated 90 degrees, appears to me as normal, and probably just an "optical illusion". I am not an expert, but I do enjoy taking a lot more time with clashed dies. Some of Coops posts show just about everything one would want to know about what is where. Hope this has helped.
Dick

[neutreno]

Dick,

Thanks for the post and confirmation that I am not entirely nuts. Mom always said " if wishes were horses, beggers would ride".

I am spinning myself up quickly on coin smarts, and using probably untried techniques like blink comparison and clear overlays to align as many points I find, fingerprinting is the closest analogy i can come up with.

CD seems to think I am seeing things and the I'll admit some may be Wishes and optical illusions. BUT, it is amazing that using 2400 dpi scans and laser printed 8x10's and clear overlays could be completly wrong. see my post of a Kennedy half on other coins board.

Paradymes are hard to break even in the best of us. My next posted penny pics are closer to what he expects to see.

Thanks again
neutreno

[n1tot]

Unfortunately I don't see anything wrong here, except maybe a few well placed die scratches.

[coppercoins]

This isn't a matter of a paradigm. It's a matter of what's possible at the Mint versus what is not possible. Finding pieces of design in traces at different angles in different locations all around both sides of any coin is optical illusion at most, more probable that it's just overactive imagination. It cannot happen. End of story. The minting process physically would not involve anything that would punch partial designs into cents in such odd places.

[neutreno]

For those that don’t see, or worse refuse to break out of their self-imposed paradigm
.[Middle English, example, from Late Latin paradīgma, from Greek paradeigma, from paradeiknunai, to compare, para-, alongside; see para–1, + deiknunai, to show.]
(noun)
1. One that serves as a pattern or model.
2. A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them, especially in an intellectual discipline.
I Submit:
A possible explanation and I will admit out of the box answer to the Halo Kennedy’s and the Phantom markers I have seen without a loop or Hi-res scan. And maybe, just maybe you will apply all that you know and not just what fits the standard model of how something could or could not happen, without dismissing honest people or assuming you are the smartest person in the room. That said, I welcome a healthy disbelief in all things made by humans.

Coin press (A) is running fine pumping out Kennedy’s until a die cap is formed and tech (A) watching for problems is getting his morning coffee.

After multiple brockage strikes, die cap is now silver leaf thin on the face of hammer die and the rest looks like a thimble or ring. Now at this point, either the leaf falls off on its own whole or in small pieces with different impressions in the surface. “Look Floating letters” scattered randomly on surface of a blank planchet about to become a real coin.” (Sorry CD tried to stop myself from using sarcasm) Or Tech (A) removes the outer ring of metal wrapped around the body of the hammer die and fails to properly clean up die surface and chamber, with what? Tech (B) is using the Air hose, I’ll just use the old toothbrush I brought from home. Scratch might not be a scratch at all but a pesky toothbrush whisker stuck in the chamber.

"Planchet is heated by die chamber from previously struck coins and as hammer die applies pressure, our poor planchet heats rapidly to just below the melting point of copper making it a semi-solid ( think Play-Doh ) inside a silver balloon. Silver however has a melting point about 100 degrees higher close to semi-solid but not quite, but very malleable. As the die’s finish the stroke copper pushes and stretches its silver coated surface into all those nooks and crannies of the opposing die. Look boys and girls, a real U.S. minted coin." (Sorry again CD, I still remember my class trip to the Philadelphia Mint, and our tour guide.) I may live in North Carolina, but grew up a stone’s throw from Valley Forge and multiple trips with my Uncle. I did not get my proofs and mint sets from the gift shop. They were handed to me and my Uncle by the director in his office. I still remember the coins and errors both natural and intentional on display in his office. Are my sets and proofs first day issues, I’ll never know.

But wait, Mister Wizard !! What happens to those pesky flakes that either fell into the chamber before the next planchet or after. Well meturalurgically they bond rather permanently to the surface of new coin. ( think spot welding) as for their apparent mis-shaped appearance they are stretched and skewed by objects around their position. "As die pressure is released exothermic coin heating chamber now becomes endothermic, and tries to absorb heat from the chamber but can’t due to being ejected and quickly cools. Some times these areas fall off and the copper shows through. Hopefully, we catch them before they leave the mint" quoteing our tour guide again.

An Error Coin? Make your own decision. I have!!

Dick, thanks for letting me bend your ear last night, it sparked some old memories.

Thanks All,
and I’m not the smartest either!


Neutreno

[coppercoins]

Well, it's nice that you've already made up your mind as to what you have, so why ask anyone else?

All I can add is that your scenario is possible however extremely improbable, and silver has not been used in the Denver or Philly mint for circulation coins since 1964. The silver clad half dollars don't count because they were not mallable as solid silver is. Let alone the fact that silver is never used in the production of cents.

Look....you have a couple of normal coins and have used a lot of imagination to stick devices where they aren't. I have tried to help you nicely, and all you do is continue to insist that your explanation for what you see is real.

I guess the best thing to do from here is agree to disagree, send the coins in to PCGS as errors with your explanation of what you see and have them return the coins to you as normal coins so you can waste money to see that you are wrong.

[neutreno]

CD.

Sorry for the mis posting. should have gone on the Kennedy half post I made instead of this one. Too many open web pages on my desktop. If it can be moved great. and many thanks.

I have my opinions and I am not as inflexible as you might think. Remember A healthy disbelief is a good thing.

The final opinion is still out. "All things being equal, the simplest answer is probably the correct one." Hakims Razor

I agree that in the case of clad coins that unless very lucky some of the flakes would fall upside down and coin would appear to have missing clad. Even if the fell correcty any copper on these pieces would be squeezed out from underneath and spread across coin surfaces.

Lets assume I am seeing champagne wishes and caviar dreams
in the phantom letters.

Halo effect could be caused by off-metal/wrong planchet by one or more of the following:
1. Creative mint employees using blank IKE dollar planchets to make one of a kind items during Die adjustments. extra metal in chamber would force a higher temp and a longer cool down with Kennedy's bust being the the thickest, edges would cool too fast and draw hot semi solid material from bust of coin. causing stress changes seen on the surface.

2. Correct planchet used with wrong die pairs/ mis matched die pairs on 64 silver. Yes, I am also assuming creative or stupid mint Employee, but just smart enough to use the correct year obverse. then adjusting for clad planchets, would apply incorrect pressure for silver Higher temps an has same effect on coin as in senario 1. with many of my 64's displaying halos I am leaning to this answer for them and them alone.

3. halos on other subsequent years may fall into either senario 1 or 2 or some other creative idea hatched at the mint.

But you and I are reduced to speculation! We were not there at the time they were struck, so until I break down and have a certfied assay done on cladding and interior coin metal we will never know for sure. Metalugists may be able to run crystaline structure tests to see post-mortum stresses that were actually placed on coin.

Thanks CD

Neutreno

[coppercoins]

The halo effect you are seeing is nothing more than die wear.

[Dick]

Mike Diamond, would you comment on the coin, that has been the topic of much conjecture, and very little agreement?

I don't mean the one posted by n1tot, dated 1998, with the "flip over strike". This one is not the coin in question. thanking you in advance,
Dick

[Bob P]

OK....I have been watching this thread to see where it goes from here. I think the opinions have been levied to a point where even beating a dead horse makes more sense.
Neutreno, I am in complete agreement with Chuck on his analysis of your coin(s). He is not a guy who just found out about this stuff yesterday you know. You asked for an opinion, and you were given one. He also gave you a suggestion that you should send the coins to a third party grading service for authentication. That is a great idea. Of course, if you would prefer to get a Metallurgists to run crystalline structure tests to see post-mortem stresses that were actually placed on coin, then that is your option also. My question is for what?
What is it about these coins that you want to hear? Are you thinking you have a unique coin worth thousands?? Take it from the folks who have been in this hobby for decades. We have seen just about all there is to see. Your cent coin remains unremarkable because the things you see just plain can't happen. You always have options of seeking other opinions as well. I suggest you seek out other forums as well. You might also contact Mike Diamond at CONECA as he is an error coin expert.