1909s Indian Fake or Legit????

ken · Senior Member

A friend of mine brought this over to check if it is real.It just doesn't look right to me.I have 1 in my set but it is not here.Kept at the bank in sdb.I haVE A COUPLE 08S COINS HERE AND THE MM IS NOT the same.aLSO THE 1ST 9 IS DIFFERENT FROM THE 2ND.cOIN IS NOT AS THICK AS MY 08S.Has irregularities around both sides of the rim like mad or railroad rims.Has 180 degree rotation like a Canadien coin.Any opinions will be greatly appreciated on this coin.Thank you,Ken

Dick · Expert Member

I'm no expert on IHC, but I sure would weigh, and examine this one very closely, as you seem to have done. It looks almost like one of thiose coins that have been opened to stach some dope, or something else. Does it feel hollow? The "S" looks likn it, ans most of the devices on the rim have some MD. The "9"'s are different, even to my eyes, so there is "something wrong in Denmark".The OBV has the denticles looking likt they had been "cut-in-two", over a large part of the rim-arc. I wonder if the Chinese have some competition?
Dick

ken · Senior Member

Hi Dick,Hope you are doing well.I don't have a scale but maybe I could rig something up using another Indian cent.The mm looks off also to me.It also has been harshly cleaned(maybe on purpose)to possibly disguise it.The whole coin just looks off to me,but I want to be sure before I possibly give him the bad news Rolling Eyes

.I was just reading some past threads as I've been off for awhile,maybe Kurt,Gary can give thier views or someone else up on the Indians Question

Dick · Expert Member

Ken, I would suggest Kurt. He has a few of these, and is pretty well up on them. Kurt, opinion?
Dick

Dick · Expert Member

Ken, I would suggest Kurt. He has a few of these, and is pretty well up on them. Kurt, opinion?
"You said it has 180 degree rotation, like a Canadian coin".
I wonder if it has been "reworked". my IHC's all are like out LWC/LMC orientation, so if it is like the Can cents, more room for doubt. Kurt could say if there are any known 180 reverse IHC cents known.
Dick[/quote]

ken · Senior Member

Dick,When you flip the coin as in US coins the reverse should be right side up.With this coin the reverse is upside down like when you flip a Canadien cent.The reverse is rotated 180 degrees as in some US large cents.

Dick · Expert Member

Tghat is what I thought you meant. but when I re-read the post, it hit me, and I pulled oout mt IHC,and checked. I have the '08-S, but not the '9-S.
Dick

eagames · Expert Member

I'm not sure about it.

I'd think if there were many 180 rotated 09-S IHCs it would probably be known. (most rotation errors are repeated)

Most China fakes lack detail. This one does not have great detail but it also shows some wear on the obv/liberty.

I don't see a reason that they would section 2 coins to make it since the only other S IHC would be an 08-S and I doub't they'd ruin an 08-S to get the reverse from it.

I sure wouldn't trust it being real but can't say for sure.

KurtS · Senior Member

I'm hardly an expert on the 1909-S, but I find the shape of the mint mark a little worrisome compared to pictures in my Snow guide. If I can find some pics to compare, I'll post them.

Dick · Expert Member

Ed, Kurt, I thought that might be the case. I think the SNOW sit has pictures of the '09-S", but don't quote me. I "lifted "some IHC pictures, quirtye a while back, and if i can locate them, maybe I can post it. It may take a while.....
Dick

KurtS · Senior Member

I found some pics. Very Happy

First, a pic off of Heritage of a 1909-S date, rotated to the same general position as above:

Now, I'm hardly as good as Coop on overlays, but when I scale the first coin to match the portrait details, I notice something odd. Since the date was on the hub for 1909, the position should be identical (and only one obverse die was used for the 09-S). You might try it yourself to be certain, but coupled with the rotation (noted in other forgeries), the mint mark, and the date position.... Confused

Dick · Expert Member

Kurt, or any one else, I need the snow link for the IHC. The oine I had was 'wiped" due to an AOL, or my screw-up. This tiome I will put it in my favorites. Maybe it will stop, ans sit a spell"!Thanks,
Dick

KurtS · Senior Member

Dick,
This is the only Snow link I have, but there' s no real info there, which is why I went to my books and Heritage.

Dick · Expert Member

I tried that link, but very little, or nothing. The ione I had before had a lot of pages, and info. It might have been the FE club, too. I was going to join, butt couldn't get past the "BOT-Buster". That has screwed me up on more than one ocassion!
Dick

eagames · Expert Member

Where did you find about the 180 rotation being noted in other forgeries?

Being noted on fakes and not any other real ones and the overlay and look and S puts the odds on it being fake. Wink