Chuck's second edition

[GarryN]

Chuck you got a plug on a Yahoo Group message board. "Lincolncentcollectors"

"You might not believe what I just found online and available to everyone. Chuck wrote the first edition several years ago, and this is the second edition. I don't know if it's complete because I haven't read it all, but check this out! Pay particular attention to the section on die making and die varieties.

http://tinyurl. com/nu9ccc

I did find a mistake or two so far, but most of it is spot on. In the doubled die section he uses a 1963 D DDO as an example of a class VII, and it's actually a class VIII (according to his own website). It's definatly worth reading!!!"

Tom M.

[coppercoins]

Thanks for the information!

The die is actually a class 7. Dunno why it's on the site as a class 8.

[eagames]

Strange...

It's a class 8 in the CPG and Coneca....

BUT I agree that it should be a class 7.
If a lower 3 was removed and a higher 3 was added that's about the best example of what class 7 is.

[wavysteps2003]

Okay, lets us rethink the situation. I have an article that will be coming out some in Errorscope and FUNtopics that shows that the dates were hand engraved into the master die and not punched in as previously thought by many. This does change things around a bit as far as dates are concerned and I am not to sure if the Class VII is a viable class any more since it deals with hub variations and changes made to that element

If we look at the definition of the Class VII doubling it states, "A hub that was modified or changed so that all or part of the design element was left on the hub in or around the same or a different design element, so that all or part of both design elements were transferred to every die made with that hub and all or part of both appears on the struck coin."

Since we know that the extra 3 digit was not punched into the master die, nor could it be added to the working hub, it leaves the Class VIII as the only viable class for this doubled die. Which by the way is an over worked class of doubling that is seemingly used fro just about ever single squeeze doubled die (the exception is Coppercoins, which uses a class IX, which I fully support) that comes into being.

BJ Neff

[eagames]

Food for thought
For Coneca these 2 circumstances don't follow the same rules:

The 63-D "looks like a class 7" with a higher 3 over a removed lower 3 but they call it class 8 because class 7 doesn't fit the manufacturing process used.

The single squeeze doubled dies are class 6 because they "look like class 6" regardless of that not being possible with the single squeeze manufacturing process used.

[coppercoins]

What I think we have here and in many other cases is a lack of knowledge as to exactly how some of these doubled dies came to being, thus we use the 'effect' method to determine what they are instead of the 'cause' method. This can cause confusion as to what class to characterize some doubled dies as...because truth be known, we actually have little factual information directly from the mint as to how these are caused.

I could frankly go with class 7 or class 8 on the 1963D because both are plausible to me given the definitions I was taught and use. Likewise, there are a number of other different doubled dies that could plausibly fall under different classes depending on how one looks at them.

[wavysteps2003]

As Chuck said, our knowledge is limited as to what goes on behind the closed doors of the US mint or any other mint in fact. All we can do is surmise what happens when a die or hub is made and hope there is a glimmer of truth to the statement.

Do not get me wrong, people like Chuck, Bob Piazza, John Wexler, James Wiles, Ken Potter, Billy Crawford, J. T. Stanton, Bill Fivaz, Alan Herbert have a thirst for what happens and are just not satisfied knowing that it is an anomaly; we must know why it occurs. And we study the possibilities, spending hours determining if it happened that way. We will have disagreements at times as to the exact cause, but never-the-less we are all close to knowing what was the occurance at the mint to create the things that we spend countless time searching for.

BJ Neff

[GarryN]

My bottle of scotch is around here somewhere...

[Bob P]

Sorry Garry, I already drank your Scotch

[Dick]

Good thing I don't drink, or I would be S.O.L.!
Dick

[Teryble]

Boy do I have alot to learn!!! When I talk to friends (who have no clue) I seem to know what I'm talking about.....which to some degree maybe 3% I do, but they are impressed....LOL
Wait till I bring this up, I'll be amazing even though I'm going to have to reread this over & over until I understand what is coming out of my mouth Thanks for the education & keeping me up all night thinking about cause & effect = affect?
T

[coppercoins]

effect. It's the result of something so it's an effect.

Affect is how an act of some sort will make something else react.

[GarryN]

[Teryble]

I'm a Te-kill-ya girl myself 1 tequila 2 tequila 3 tequila floor....LOL If it were not for the tech stuff I would be more clueless than I am now. Some is very difficult to comprehend, but that is why I am here & ask so many questions. Layman terms would help.....Insert slot A into slot B...
T

[Dick]

Teri, I, too like the product from Tequilla, Jal. BTW, have you ever been there? It is most interesting. A "soap-opera" in Spanish, was on TV not too long ago, "Delsiliando Amor",, which was filmed there, and showed much of the process from the cultivation of the Maguey plants to the pleasure of the "Good stuff"! I have been thru there several times,but didn't stop, for any length of time. Still many Kilometros to go.
Dick