Roll Find - 2004-D Lincoln with Circular-Arch Die Dent

[Danester]

OK, Chuck we at the bar and I propose one of those “Bar Bets”. I say – "OK Chuck, I give up, we will use your terms and definitions.

Is the coin below a Die Variety or Die Error?

I recently posted this image on CoinCommunity.com and the following thread –
http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=86531

In that post I said “The Buffalo Nickel sometimes clashes with extremely rotated dies and you get something other than the normal "Chin Letters" from "E PLURIBUS UNIUM". Go clockwise from EPU on the Bison reverse and we come to the curvature of the forward upper rear leg, and that's what we might be seeing on the Buffalo Nickel above (I would need to see it with a Loupe to confirm)”.

The image below shows a Clash Mark from extremely rotated dies where remnants of the Bison's forward lower rear leg is sticking into the Indian's throat.

The question is usually asked,”If these are clash marks from extremely rotated dies, why does the coin itself not have an extremely rotated reverse?

That's generally the case, because the majority of these extremely rotated die clashes happen during die/press set-up. After proper set up, the dies are then aligned properly (or better). Also, because the clashing happens before the start of coin production, you can expect that all coins from the dies to have the clash marks unless later polished off by a workman, or extensive die usage.

OK Chuck, is this a Die Variety or Die Error? Be careful….. it’s one of those Bar Bets.



The Danester

[coop]

Here is a buffalo nickel overlay:

see if this helps?

[eagames]

I'd call it a die clash that shows in that die state.

It wasn't on the die when the die was made, it was there in that state and it might be gone in later states. I wouldn't say it meets the rules to be a die variety.

People use the term "variety" and "die variety" almost interchangeably but it makes more sense to include the word "die" if talking about a "die variety" and define it as a "die variety is made when the die is made"

[justafarmer]

Is it an unintended anomaly attributable to

the process of manufacturing the die? (Variety)

or

use of the die in the process of manufacturing coins? (Error)

This is the rule of thumb I use - some may agree and some disagree

[Dick]

The overlays are what it would normally be expected to use to locate what made the "marks", in a clash.
In this case the die would have to be rotated quite a bit to stick in the throat.
Now, my understanding is that the dies are made with a "protection feacture" to prevent their mounting in any position, other than the desired, and intended. Unless the press is worn, there should not be much chance of a mis-alignment, today.
"Way back then", yes anything could be possible, and probably happened several times.

[Danester]

OK, I guess Chuck was "too smart" to bite on my bar bet. Bar bets are always some type of trickery anyway... and that's the case here. By accepted definition die clashes are die errors, but this coin is a die variety. It is the very rare 1915-D/D 5c Buffalo Nickel RPM-1 FS-015. The dies where likely pulled from production early because of the die clash and errored mintmark.

In 25-years I've only come across 7 examples of this die variety, and they all have shown this die clash. I recently sold an ANACS Net-50 (whizzed surfaces) to a friend, and the clash showed even more of the leg on that example. This friend also has a Mint State piece that I am to examine in June. This information is scheduled to go into the next edition of the Cherrypickers Guide.









The Danester

[coop]

That is a very nice RPM. Something to watch for at the local show next month.

[coppercoins]

You were not asking about the part you showed - which isn't really a die error or die variety - it's just clash marks.

You were asking about something not shown in any of your descriptions or images. How could I have known it was an RPM?

[Danester]

Exactly.... it was a Bar Bet. Stay away from those!

I was more interest in presenting this die marker for the 1915-D/D 5c Buffalo Nickel RPM-1 here on CopperCoins - a first anywhere. The next edition of the Cherrypickers Guide will have this update.

I'd say you are correct about die clash marks alone not being a die error, unless the dies are extremely rotated to make it a unique die. Then it might jump the die error tag by popularity to an “outside the box” category of “Acknowledged Die Variety” – as in the case of famous Abraded Dies like the 3-Legged Buffalo Nickel and the 1922 Plain Lincoln Cent. Like it or not (with the accepted definitions) that’s what has happened in these cases - where something by the book is not a true Die Variety, but the public treats them like they are.



The Danester

[justafarmer]

I know this is a copper coin website but but since the three legged Buffalo Nickel has been brought up - I have always wondered. Are there any known examples of the coin prior to the die being abraided or was the die abraided before orginally being placed in service?

[coop]

Probably the only way you could tell would be the mint mark location.

[Dick]

I'll go along with Coop. You might start a thread in the "other US coins" section. It does cover all the rest.