Tripled/Quadrupled Die Clash

[Bob P]

Here's something you certainly don't see every day! This is a 1999P Lincoln cent with evidence of at least a tripled, but most likely a quadrupled die clash showing in the bays of the memorial. The most I had ever seen before this one was a doubled clash. I would think that in order for this to occur, the dies had to clash at least 3 times and then rotate a little bit between the clashes. Any comments??

[coop]

Bob: What does the obverse look like? They may of replaced the clashed obverse die if it doesn't have some marks on it.

[Bob P]

The obverse shows no signs of clashing, but it is at least an MDS with some die gouges and scratches. It is an interesting specimen indeed.

[wavysteps2003]

I search an awful lot of Lincoln cents and see many a reverse die clash, however, I seldom see an obverse die clash. The ratio is well over 100 to 1. Is there an answer why the obverse die clash is not as predominant as the reverse?

WAVYSTEPS2003

[wavysteps2003]

By the way Bob, that is very interesting die clash. The most that I have seen on one die is three. Yours is a definite quad!!!!

BJ

[Bob P]

I don't have a difinitive answer to your question about the clashes BJ, but I do have a theory. I believe that when the dies clash, there is more damage done to the obverse die, than the reverse. If that is the case, then rather than attempting polishing, they may just replace the die all together. If the reverse die only shows the minor clashing in the bays, like most modern clashes, they may attempt a minor polish or let it alone.
That hasn't always been the case though. Two years in particular (1972 and 1983), have some wonderful clashes that show up on both sides of the coin. I have quite a few where the last couple of letters of LIBERTY can be seen in the memorial bays.
It's just a guess, but that's the only reason I can come up with to answer your question is that they just plain replace the obverse die more often..

[wavysteps2003]

That is an interesting theory and it sounds logical. I just found a pair of ' 88s, differnet dies, that have a visble obverse die clash. One die has moderate die scratching on the obverse and reverse and appears to have been clashed before. Interestingly enough, the stronger of the two obverse clashes, has a weaker reverse die clash than the obverse; it is the one without the die scratching. This tends to strenghen your theory that the obverse die receives more damage than the reverse when clashed.

BJ

[coop]

Interesting theory, but why does the RPM book mention reverse die changes? Why have we not found the same reverse on the same obverses?
Not to say the RPM book has the final say, it does mention dies being changed often once, sometimes more:
1937-D RPM # 37 Mentions 2 reverses : Page 14
1951-D RPM # 18 Mentions 2 reverses : Page 88
1958-D RPM # 1 Mentions 2 reverses : Page 137
1961-D RPM # 4 Mentions 2 Reverses : Page 182
1961-D RPM # 21 Mentions 2 reverses : Page 188
1961-D RPM # 47 Mentions 2 reverses : Page 196
That is not counting the ones that mention one reverse change.
So I feel that both takes an abuse when a Die clash happens. They just scratch out the fields and go on. Seems like wear from use, Die breaks and finally the die splitting is the determining factor as to when a die is retired OBV/REV. But it appears that the reverse doesn't last as long as the obverse as for wear. You can see die listing with MDS/LDS or VLDS die states with the medium dies state obverses then a replacement. But a some of the dies make it through to the VLDS together. Depending on the year, how long the dies are abused from over working past their prime. Interesting no mention of 2 exchanges after 1961? Probably realized their previous mistakes and improved. Just my two CENTS worth.
I bought a roll of 1954 Cents that was all VLDS. The only thing you can say about them is, there BU. Probably some one sorted them out as not desirable to them. So I got them.....Now what....

[Bob P]

Coop,
I believe the RPM book only mentions reverse die changes is because if the obverse was changed, then it wouldn't be the RPM die any more, and therefore not be in the book. The only way to tell if the obverse die was damaged and removed is by observing how many were struck by die state. If you don't find any RPMs in LDS, then the die probably never made it that far.
I don't know if this has anything to do with it or not, but the reverse die is normally the stationary die,and the obverse is the hammer. I can see that in that case, the reverse die may be more apt to break or wear. Of course, with clashing, you can never be sure, and all of my comments are purely speculation. This is all interesting stuff though...isn't it?

[murphy]

Bob, you're sure finding some weird stuff lately. Keep it up.