Cartwheel Luster on Half Cents and Large Cents?

[Dana]

I've read this before and have also heard other collectors say that Large Cents and Half Cents (up to the 1850's) usually do not have cartwheel luster like silver coins, for example.

I've also read and heard this was due to the processing of the copper at the time: It certainly was not as advanced as it is now, and also, there were often impurities in the copper.

Have others heard or read this too? I've looked for more info on the internet and in books to confirm this, and have not found anything absolutely conclusive. I'd truly appreciate opinions, experience, and information that any other half and large cent collectors might have.

Thanks.

[Bob P]

Hi Dana
The following excerpt is from another thread in the forum adressing the issue of copper strikes. I am including it to keep from having to re-write it (I'm kinda lazy I guess)

"The processes for making planchets those days wasn't much different than what they are today, but thier smelting techniques weren't the best. Many of the early coppers corroded easily, many times from the inside out. Impurites in the copper was a primary factor. and many times gas bubbles were trapped in the metal making the surface of the coin much more brittle. Any hit to the coin may have disturbed or broken the outermost surfaces leading to pitting and corrosion."
In addition, as GarryN stated, many planchets were made in England and shipped to the new world. I am sure the Atlantic ocean played havoc on those planchets.
As far as Cartwheel luster, you will not find that type of luster on most half and large cents. Copper will tarnish a lot quicker than silver coins, and the darker color mutes the cartwheel effect. I will not venture to say if a large cent was perfectly preserved from the day it was minted, whether or not it would have that cartwheel luster, and that is because I just plain don't know. I am sure they exhibited some sort of luster.
Basically Dana, to recap a bit, Silver coins are much brighter and shinier than copper, therefore most of that beautiful cartwheel luster will be more evident. Copper from the late 1700's until the mid to late 1800's was often filled with impurities. That combined with improper storage and environmental damage could well be the reasons for the lack of a lot of much finer early copper examples. There are still some nice examples out there, and if I manage to get my hands on a couple, I will take some photos for the site.

Bob P

[Dana]

Bob,

Thanks for the reply. Just to mention, I do have one full red cent from the 1850's (can't say what date for certain--it is locked up at the bank currently). I would venture to say it is MS 64 or so, and has "swirly" luster if that makes sense.

The light does not turn fully over the entire coin, but seems to swirl in a somewhat circular motion. I had studied this coin under a glass for many hours. I could find no evidence of cleaning or hairlines, and the luster appeared genuine. I could find no breaks in the luster either.

To be honest, I have never seen a slabbed or unslabbed example with full cartwheel luster.

Thank you so much for the info on luster and large cents/half cents. It seems to be a pretty obscure topic.

[Bob P]

Dana,
Your verbage of "swirly luster" is the kind of words I've been looking for when dealing with older coppers. I hope you don't mind if I use it occasionally
Anyway, you are very welcome. I hope what I said shared a little more light (or swirly luster in this case) on the subject, but as you stated, it is a rather obscure subject matter. If you ever get to pull that MS cent out of the bank, and can take pictures, I'd sure like to see it.

Bob P

[Dana]

Bob,

Feel free to use "swirly luster." I'd consider that a compliment.

Unfortunately, I have the coin stashed in a safety deposit box that is not in town. One of the drawbacks of living in a small city--only the main branch of the bank has safety deposit boxes.

Unfortunately, too, all I have of this red large cent is a scan that makes it look red/brown and really crappy (to be perfectly honest) from the original seller. It is an 1854 by the way.

Also, this coin caught me by surprise. When I opened the safety mailer and first saw this cent, I almost dropped it, and honestly, I swore. I could not believe it was full red and also had full luster. The darker areas on the original scan I think were caused by the reflection of the light. The seller also had it in a holder that had a lot of paper lint on it. And the lower hair and leaf detail was better in person than in the scan.

While not the strongest strike, there are very, very few small bag/contact marks. And what looked like spotting on the coin was not there either--either debris in the holder or shadowing.

This was probably one of the luckiest deals I ever got. In a slab, it would have cost me a lot more. I also took this coin to a dealer when I first got it, and he said MS 64, full red. Said it would go 65 or higher if not for a somewhat softer strike in areas (thought maybe the dies had worn a bit in certain spots). I originally called it a 62 or 63 because of the softer strike.

[Bob P]

Sounds like a great coin Dana. I have a few Large Cents, most of them in AU condition. I do believe that area is where I want to go next. All of the Large Cents I own now are varieties (repunched dates and the like). I actually found an 1828 large cent when I was helping my brother do some demolition work in Boston. It was previously cleaned, but a very nice coin anyway.
I also understand about how photographs normally don't do the coin justice...they seldom do. I am attempting to get the photos I take for coppercoins.com to look as close to the real thing as possible. Of course all that work doesn't mean much if the monitor I use isn't exact in color reproduction.
BTW, thanks for letting me use "swirly luster". Sounds like a Las Vegas showgirl...doesn't it?

Bob P

[GarryN]

Ive seen some nice color on large cents but never cartwheel lustre