Red Linclons: Air-Tite Ring Holders, Slabs and Toning

[Dana]

I have a small collection of pure red MS Lincolns going back to 1909. But looking at the raw ones tonight, I noticed some of them are starting to tone just a little--especially around the rim.




Has anyone had any red Lincolns get rim toning or other toning while in an Air-Tite ring holder? I spent the extra money on Air-Tites to keep all of my raw red Lincolns from toning, but no such luck.

I have also witnessed 2 of my 4 NGC slabbed MS-66 Red 1909-VDB Lincolns picking up some toning as well over the years. And those slabs are stored in my safety deposit box within a climate controlled vault. I really noticed the change last time I went to the bank. I think ultimately I'll have red/brown lincolns slabbed inside these MS-66 Red slabs.

I'm not too worried though. With the price of Lincolns going up and up, I'll break even soon enough, lol.

The weird thing though--is that I have not noticed any toning like this on my raw Red or Copper-Nickel Indian Head Cents.

Just wondering if anyone else has seen red Lincolns toning inside Air-Tite Ring holders or inside slabs?

Thanks,

Dana

[Gabe]

Toning is a natural reaction of copper and other metals, and unfortunarely, slabs and airtite holders dont offer full protection. I believe NGC does not guarantee the grade of copper coins in the holders, because copper can tone and get carbon spots even within the holders.

[Dana]

Gabe,

It has been awhile since I have posted here--but you always have such great answers and a ton of knowledge.

Your response makes me think of something though--is it really worth the risk of paying high prices for pure red cents that might not be pure red 2, 5, 10, however many years from now?

Red coppers are so beautiful. But I also have 2 violet toned Lincolns--a 1909 and a 1909-VDB that I bought from a collection that was stored in a wooden chest with super tiny velvet lined wooden drawers. These two Lincolns are the most beautiful I have ever seen--absolute blazers with the strongest, most amazing cartwheel luster. And not a baggie on either one (just the tiniest bit of chatter under 16x magnification).

But--they were both considered quote on quote "brown cents."

If slabbing companies won't guarantee the grade and color of copper coins, it seems to me full red coins are over rated. Maybe collecting browns and red/browns is the way to go, lol.

Thanks again for the info Gabe,

Dana

[Bob P]

Dana,
Gabe made some great points. Some other things that affect coins whether in a slab or not, are light and temperature. Your coins being in a vault should address those concerns.
I guess the biggest thing about slabbed full red coins is that there is always the possibility they will tone to an extent. You could have two coins, from the same roll, slabbed a tthe same time, and kept in the same place...yet one will tone and the other might not. One of numismatics greatest mysteries?? It's a gamble some folks take. In some instances, the toning makes the coin that much more attractive to some folks.
Ultimately, the expense for full red coins is a collectors choice. With the way collecting is going now, I foresee a smaller gap between full red and red/brown coins. I agree with you in that sometimes the toned coins are much more attractive than full red. If you are into it strictly for investment purposes, buying full red is a tricky gamble that may or not pay off in the long run.

[Gabe]

I like Red cents, but I have recently found nice evenly toned brown cents very attractive, and have added a couple to my collection.

Since NGC cannot guarantee the grade they give to copper coins, I believe, grading copper coins is not necessary, unless one is trying to prove the coins authenticity. If one has good grading skills and a good eye, why waste money into getting a coin slabbed?

[Dana]

Bob, Thank you for your reply as well. I am in this as a collector, not an investor. I bought the red lincolns because of their beauty I guess--that full, blazing, almost new look if you know what I mean. And I agree it is a mystery why one coin tones while one does not. Or in the same old time album, why one coin tones ugly and the next one too it is truly beautiful.

I also believe red/browns are gaining ground.

Do either of you know if copper-nickel cents are as suspectible to toning and carbon spots? In my limited experience, I have seen carbon spots on Lincolns and on some Indian Head cents, but not on a copper-nickel that I can recall.

Thanks to both you and Gabe for your expertise. I always learn so much when I visit this site.

[Gabe]

Dana, I think you mean copper plated zinc cents.

Copper-plated zinc cents are subsectible to carbon spotting, but I dont know if they are more or less subsectible to it than pre 1982 cents.

Copper plated zinc cents do suffer (especially those from the 1980's) from bumbs and lumps throughout the coin due to the problems the mint was having with the new cent composition. It is common to come across these 'pimpled' cents from the 1980's and I completely avoid them when I plan to buy a coin for my collection.

[coop]

Dana: I've never seen but a few of the copper-nickel Indian Heads and none of them had spots. But That don't mean they won't, just don't recall seeing any that did. The 88% copper and 12% nickel seem better than todays standards of the 95% copper 5% Tin and Zinc used from 1864-1942 except for 1943 which was steel. 1944 They used Copper 95% and 5% Zinc. In 1982 they started the copper platted Zinc Cents. Some of the early Lincolns had a poor mix on the planchets and they look with wood grain on the coins. It takes a good clean mix to keep the spots from comming in and I don't remember too many years that didn't suffer from spots. Seems like age brings out freckles on aging coins. But a carbon spot may come and never go away. I don't think anyone is able to remove them. If they could they could make a fortune to Cent collectors.

[Dana]

Thanks RS and Gabe. I was actually thinking of copper nickel Indian Head cents but did not explain that clearly enough. I wrote my prior response too late last night, lol. But the info on 1943 Cents helped a lot too. I know moisture can also do a job on a 1943.

I'm crossing my fingers that copper nickel is less suspectible to carbon spotting.

Thanks,

Dana

[coop]

Only time will tell.... Carbon spotted cents I find go into rolls or if they are wheats, into the container to be sorted and sold later. The BU look brings the look up of the circulated/BU coins.

[Gabe]

Dana, nickel is a less reactive metal than copper, so I would not find it surprising if the copper nickel Indians dont cardon as much as the 'pure' copper cents...

[Dana]

My thanks to Gabe, Bob, and RS. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge. Happy Holidays.

[GarryN]

i wqant to add my 2 cents about toned copper. there is nothing nicer looking than toned copper. If you look on Snow's website, he highlights toned proof cents in his inventory list.

http://www.indiancent.com/market/78p64rbp.jpg

I have two "red brown" Indian proofs that are wonderful shades of magenta and violet. My '55 doubled die, which is red brown also has a lot of violet toning. The full red cents will always be higher priced, but that can get boring if all your cents looked alike. Nice original evenly toned cents are a good buy. A nice mix of red, and toned and circulated cents is always more interesting to look at.