Is This A Possible Totally Separated Extra Lincoln Sitting?

[ddorpm]

Attached are a couple of photos on a 2005 Lincoln cent I recently came across in my searches that seem to exhibit some interesting possibilities on the reverse.

(1) Top photo provides an overall view.

(2) Middle photo is a closer view with what appears to show a couple of extremely raised areas wide south of Lincoln sitting. Could these be the corresponding high points of the primary Lincoln sitting knees? Additionally, other raised areas might correspond to Lincoln's left and right hands which are also high points.

(3) Bottom photo is the exact same as the middle photo but with a transparent overlay of Lincoln sitting superimposed and positioned over the raised areas in question that I have highlighted with arrows. It appears that all the high points match exactly. I could discount this if one or may be two points of the raised areas in question might match up by simply moving the overlay in various positions. However - with all the points matching up seems to be more than just mere coincidence.

Is this an extra Lincoln sitting that is totally separated wide south of the primary Lincoln sitting?

or

Just some well placed die gouges or other strange anomaly?




Regards,
Billy

[wavysteps2003]

The proof is in the superb overlay that you did Billy and it tells all the story. There seems to be a lot happening at the center of the reverse die and it is again dramatic proof that the single squeeze is not all that it is made out to be. It is very obvious, or at least to me, that this is a doubled die with another "Lincoln seated" to the south. Very nice find and congratulations !!!!

WAVYSTEPS2003

[coop]

Billy: Thanks for sharing. Something new to watch for.

[Bob P]

Hi Billy
Seems to have possibilities. I do however see that the 'hands' do not line up properly with the overlay. Based on the position of your overlay, the legs match up perfectly. This would leave the hand imprint on the left ON the 6th column based on the angle of the arm, not inside the bay. Yet, there is something there (the areas you call possible hands). The other concern or question I have is the space between the knees, and why does the knee on the right flare out as it does. I would also question why there is no other image in the stairs immediately below this area (like a wavy step)
Although there are possibilities, this raises just as many questions. Definitely not a yes or no on my part, but something that we can kick around for a bit to see if we can make some sort of conclusion on it.

[Gabe]

Very cool variety. It sure looks like a doubled die to me, but if the higher siting Lincoln is the strongest, shouldnt the steps and all of the reverse elements be also farther north? There is defianately something going on, that seems to be in the dies themselves.

I think it is a doubled die, but as BobP said, there are still some questions needed to be answered before bing 100% sure.

[wavysteps2003]

Gabe, I think that you are looking at it a bit wrong. The strongest "Lincoln seated" is in the correct place as far as the overall design.

When the die was made, the first part of it was touched by the hub and that was to far south that left the two knees and the two hands, which are the higest points in the center. It was then backed off, reset and then completed. Due to the conical shape of the new die, the stairs, the columns and other devices would be formed later in the squeeze.

The most common of this type "single squeeze" error is the bars (columns) on either side of the chair which is caused by the die being touched by the hub in the area of the 6th or 7th column, which to me would indicate tilted hub. I have seen up to three "bars" which would mean that there were four attempts to complete the die, with the last being sucessful. Rarer occurances happen when we see multiple knees and or feet. Other anomalies exist, like an extra portion of the 5th column in bay 4 or an extra arch above Lincoln's chair. There is an endless list of possiblities.

Has this happened before? Yes, look at the large amount of doubled eyelids that have been found and this is very similar to what is happening now, except it is with the reverse die now. Will happen to the obverse die, I am looking

You all have fun looking and have a good one.

Wavy Steps 2003

[ddorpm]

John A. Wexler has provided his thoughts about my coin as follows:

"I am 100% convinced that this is the real deal. I have found numerous examples of doubling to the statue on the reverse involving the highpoints which are the knees and hands. The Lincoln statue is the geographical center of the reverse and that immediate area is where first contact will occur with the hub and the die. A light "kiss" of the hub and die will produce a partial impression of which is relatively short due to the fact that the hub or die very quickly snaps back into proper alignment. The discovery of this and similar varieties gives the collectors something else to look out for while searching for the wavy steps varieties. Your find doesn't surprise me in the least. It is one of the more dramatic ones that I have seen."

I would like to offer some "food-for-thought" on what might be happening. Of course this is pure speculation on my part - but it appears to me there is a pattern developing.

Back in 2003, Ken Potter noted a 2003 Lincoln cent on his web site with what appeared to be doubling now termed as "wavy steps" type DDR's. The doubling on this 2003 cent exhibited some similar appearances to a 1994 cent that John Wexler had reported. This initiated a search that resulted in not just 2003 cents, but many dates that were found to have fluted columns and various "wavy steps" on the reverse with the doubling ranging from very minor to very strong examples.

During all of 2004, numerous discoveries continued now involving 2003 cent DDO's, a 2001 cent DDO, a 2004 cent DDO, as well as a couple of strong DDR's for the 2004 cents. As the year progressed, even more 2004 cent DDO's and DDR's were reported and cataloged.

Most notable, it was in June of 2004 when Gabe Alonso of Florida first reported a doubled die obverse on a 2004-P Peace Medal five-cent piece and was subsequently published by John Wexler, Ken Potter and myself in Numismatic News and Coin World weekly magazines. As we all remember, this DDO exhibited very nice notching and separation on the motto, LIBERTY, date and "P" mint mark, as well as other areas on the obverse.

Additionally, and more importantly in the scope of things, it was Alonso’s 2004-P Peace Medal DDO that initiated a U.S. Mint study that was completed and released this past April. To quickly summarize, the Mint’s report, "Manufacturing Study on Coin Variations for Possible Doubling," outlined a review of associated equipment and processes to identify any possible causes of the reported doubling from Alonso’s coin. In an effort to re-create a doubled die during hubbing, the Mint’s report conducted extensive testing in the die shop to include introducing variables such as loose versus tight bolts, die types, and various surface conditions at the bottom of a die blank. The Mint concluded their report in being unable to conclusively produce a doubled die. At least in terms of what they call a doubled die. However, this came as no surprise since we expected that type of statement coming from the Mint.

Since the Mint's report, at least for my records so far, no 2005 cent DDO's have yet to be authenticated for my "C" files as compared to the many verified and listed 2004 cent DDO's. What happened? Why the disparity?

I believe that the Mint, and again this is speculating, that in their study of trying to recreate a doubled die with their associated hubbing equipment; unknowingly and inadvertently corrected the factors that caused the tilting and snapping back into correct horizontal alignment that had been so prevalent for 2004 coins.

Currently, for the 2005 cents, I am seeing a few "wavy steps" with a couple of them fairly strong in doubling. But again, no verified 2005 cent DDO's as of yet for my "C" files. I'm not saying there are not any - just I haven't verified one yet.

Just recently, we now have a 2005-P 5c Bison Reverse SMS Matte doubled die obverse reported. Though overall the doubling on this variety, at least in the scheme of things is minor, but once again, the implication of it being a genuine doubled die is major. It appears to me the wear and tear, extensive use of associated equipment is allowing the specifications and tolerances to fluctuate that will cause the tilting and snapping back into correct alignment to start happening again.

This 2005 cent with doubling of the statue wide south, though overall is minor, I also feel has major implications that once again doubled dies are going to increase in frequency and hopefully in strength as time goes by. At least - I hope so!

That's the pattern I think I'm seeing here with all of this.

Regards,
Billy

[Bob P]

I certainly agree with the 'pattern' as Billy states. What I don't see is an agressive action to eliminate thes types of anomalies, because I really don't think the mint knows how to do that. I don;'t think they believe they are dooubled dies at all, and therefore are not too concerned abot what is being found.
Personally, I don't care if they do or don't attempt to fix the problem. These doubled dies mean out collectors have more to look for, and on more recent coinage to boot. I hope it stays the same way it is.

[Gabe]

Wavysteps, thanks for pointing out my mistake in 'looking' at the coin.

Billy, I think we have a nice doubled die that is wider than the 2004P DDO nickel and found and wider than the 1995 doubled die obverse cent. This is a major find, and it only proves that the mint still cant fix their problems in die making.

Thanks for the info and pics Billy!

[ddorpm]

Thanks everybody for your replies, observations and comments.

But ........... you aint seen nothing yet!!!!!!!!!!

MAJOR NEW DISCOVERY has happened and about to be reported -- and I have the exclusive and story. This will blow everybodies mind and the Mint away.

I just luv this hobby!

Regards,
Billy

[Gabe]

Billy, major than this? Is it a Lincoln cent discovery?!

Lol, I cant imagine what the discovery could be. Cant wait to find out!

[JRocco]

Well you got me stuck to this monitor waiting Billy-----Hurry with the new find.

[Mike]

I've checked this post 8 times today.
Question
So how do you keep 20 plus Lincoln variety collectors in suspense???? Ask Billy he'll tell you eventually! LOL

[coop]

What ever it is, it must be B I G!

[ddorpm]

Please forgive me -- my bust, (can you hear me slapping myself?) I should have said it will be shortly published in Numismatic News by me. I just completed the article with photos yesterday and they went to print on the story this morning for the upcoming issue.

Again -- I apologize for my keeping your heads glued to your monitor.

Also -- there will be an additional whopping new discovery, yes, another one! -- that I am currently writing now with photos and it will published in NN in the following issue. Phew!!!! It's been hectic.

So -- stay tuned - it's wild and crazy.

If you don't get Numismatic News -- I will prepare a web page for the new discoveries that I will post after published.

Regards,
Billy