MAKING ERRORS

[wavysteps2003]

I still have the habit of looking through the dwindling list of "error coins" on Ebay for every once in awhile you do run across some valuable information.

However, the more common auction now a days, is one to seperate the ill informed "collector" from their money. Case in point; I normal do not use names, but this case calls for it. It seems that "theydidntmakeit" (actual Ebay handle) has a thriving business going on in his/her garage. Some how this person has either made or acquired a "soft" die Lincoln cent obverse and is busy stamping out their own versions of "double die" coins. And yes, people are buying them with the highest one going for, (choke, sob, beat your fist against your head), $91.00. To make matters worse, this crafty person even puts it in their write up that the error is not real, although you must read that statment carefully to see that little obscure fact.

Of course this is illegal, it violates fedral statutes, for it is defacing government currency to obtain a profit. And what does E-bay do? Absolutely nothing. It is money in their pockets and they are exempt from laws broken by the person who put this item up for auction.

You may say that in this person's defense, that they did state the error was not real. However, it is still unethical and it emboldens others to do the same thing in hopes that they may obtain the same profit margin as this person has.

Recently, I stopped selling on E-bay and this was one of the prim reasons for my action. The amount of "JUNK" being offered on that web site is actually driving the price of legitimate articles, such as doubled dies, RPMs and true error coins, further and further downward. There is also the myriad of specially named error coins that have deluge the market; that has not helped matters one bit.

Not many remember a time some 20 to 30 years back when ever little die crack, gouge or anomaly had a special name affixed to it to garner an extra dollar or two from a coin that had minimal value over face. Prices soared and as each new specially named "error coin" hit the market, more and more said "I got to have it". Then people became smart and the market crashed, big time, leaving a lot with coins of no value that they had bought at a premium. This is called the "tulip effect" for it first happened in Holland many, many years ago.

Does this sound familar to any one out there? Is it happening now? You bet it is.

Just to finish off, be careful what you buy, make sure you know who you are buying from and be aware of what is going on in the coin world.

You all have a good one.

BJ Neff

[Gabe]

I havent bought or sold anything on ebay in a while, for the same reasons you have stated.

The listings on ebay have gone down, and I think it is because of the large amount of fraud taking place. Most designer clothing brands sold on ebay are fakes, and the amount of counterfeit coins from China have grown in the past year.

I sure hope that google comes up with an alternative auction site, then maybe Ebay will do something about all the fraud.

[Bob P]

BJ...All your points are very valid, and even I have seldom used Ebay and I started with them in 1998. I will not even attempt to dignify what this clown is doing, but your facts about it being illegal might be a little off. You are correct in that it is illegal to deface and tend for profit any currency. It is also illegal to mint your own coins and try to pass them off as the real thing. However, these laws do not hold true for coins like the individual is making. If this individual is stating that these are not real, the onus is on the buyer. If it were illegal, then all of the reproductions, magicians pieces etc. would be illegal. Ebay can not do much with this individual because technically, he is covering himself with the caveat. As far as being unethical...I am with you 100% on that point.
That being said, I do NOT agree with what he and others are doing to remove people from their money. We, as collectors still need to try and educate others so they do not fall prey to idiots like this. Sometimes, it is just not worth getting a headache over. Most people you warn about scams like this get so defensive anyway. If they buy even after they have been warned, then ignorance rules, and they deserve to have their money taken. I guess the ethical point can be brought one step further, and that includes the idiots who charge $15.00 to mail a coin one state over. Those are the ones that get my goat.

[Earwig]

I stopped selling on ebay about 2 years ago. I only bid on stuff now that is easy to identify or stuff that is hard to question its authenticity. Just bought a box of 06d lincolns. Its easier just to trade to dif collectors for stuff you want and things they need

Eric

[wavysteps2003]

When it comes to the United States law, you would have to be a master lawyer to figure things out. However, United States Code, Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 17, Para. 331 "
Mutilation, Diminution and Falsefication of Coins" covers what this person is doing and it is illegal. Even the magicians false coins, if made from real currency, is illegal, for it does alter the currency. The manufacturing of replica coins is legal, if it is represented as a reproduction. Other things that would fall under this act as being illegal are; elongated coins, love tokens, hobo nickels and coins made into pendants by drilling a hole in them, however, these are never prosecuted even though it is in direct violation of this statute.

Bob and myself may have a difference of opinion in interpreting the exact meaning of this law, however, that is really not the main point here. As Bob said, such actions are unethical, whether stated or not and as such should not be allowed by E-bay. In this case as with many others (Chinese trade dollars, Canadian cast 1955 doubled dies and such that happen on this site) both E-bay and the other party who perpetrates these acts are at equal fault.

Having said all that, the only way to help stop this from continuing is to curtail your buying from E-bay, then maybe they will get the big picture.

Regards to all,
BJ Neff

[eagames]

The problem is these adds have titles like "2004 double die" then you read the details and it vaguely says coin is real error is not. In that case it never was a double die as the auction title stated. I wonder why anyone would want those fakes or why anyone would buy an item from the same seller that he claims is real. There's other sellers that are similar they list items like this time after time then add a note "I was told it might be fake" or "a coin shop told me it was made outside of the mint" which would be believable if they did it once but when you see the same sellers list items like that every week you can bet they made them. We're not foolish enough to think they repeatedly find these in rolls and then realize they were made. There are bigger crooks on ebay selling outright fakes, beware of key coins that are not certified and want money-orders or have bogus feedbacks from a few small purchases. Just a few cautions avoids most scams.

[coppercoins]

Started on eBay probably before anyone else here - June, 1996.

Since October, 2001, I have used eBay all of a couple dozen times for buying or selling. I lost my interest in it long ago as a seller, and more recently as a buyer.

Most of the reason I lost interest as a seller is the myriad of screens one has to muddle through to list anything for sale. Seems it took longer than the time was costing me to list my items with six, seven, or so screens of crap to skip or fill out.

Most of my interest as a buyer was lost with having to waste hours of time looking through thousands of auctions of junk to find anything worth buying. I'd rather drive four hours to a coin show than spend 30 minutes muddling through junk on eBay.

[wavysteps2003]

As I had mentioned before in an earlier post in this thread, self made error coins can become contagious.This is a typical "copycat" auction, bolstered by the fact that the origanals that were put on E-bay did so well.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110030142391&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=001
TRIPLE DIE COLORADO QUARTER ERROR QUARTER COIN

Take a step back and consider these auctions and what they do to the numismatic hobby. Not only are they detremental but also very illegal and even if the seller does state that the error is not real, it is still unethical. And yet, what does E-bay do? NOTHING !!!!!!!!!!

The only way to make E-bay aware of what is happening is to curtail selling and bidding on that site. Then, when their pockets start lacking money, they will start recognize the problems that they have encourage by their actions of doing nothing to stop them.

WAVYSTEPS2003 aka BJ Neff

Just a little post script. THEYDIDNTMAKEIT, the original seller that I discussed in the begining of this thread has made over $300.00 by selling these self made error coins.

[coop]

The biggest problem ebay has is the listing fees. They make money even if no one bids. It someone does bid, they make a commision on the sale and also control PayPal and collect again when someone pays. So a seller is stripped of most of his money before/after a sale. Seems like the only winner here is the buyer as they don't have to pay anyfees to ebay or paypal. I guess the best way to scam ebay is to list coins for 1 Cent and make up the rest for the coin in shipping to cover the fees for listing, fees for the sale and for the use of paypal. So no wonder we see high postage and handling rates. You have to beat their system the best way you can. So if you look at coins that no one buys (DD's RPMs) and stock on them for a lower price and have a good laugh at the ones that are worth face value and selling for hundreds of dollars, you just have to find the jems and ignore the CRAPP.

[BobA]

Just having the knowledge of knowing what your looking at is a wonderful thing also. Today on E-Bay a 1955-D "proof" sold. Item number 230019561343.

Bob

[wavysteps2003]

DARN - and I needed one of those 55-D proofs for my collection.

WAVYSTEPS2003

[smed]

[eagames]

Here's a few Ebay funny ones I saw today to go along with that proof 55-d:

Heres a rare 1939 uncirculated proof FS-017

http://cgi.ebay.com/1939-P-LINCOLN-CENT-DDO-RD-BU-FS-1-017-PROOF-UNC-BEAUTY_W0QQitemZ160026955497QQihZ006QQcategoryZ139804QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


I don't think FS ever called these 033.38, it should be 033.58.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1972-LIincoln-1C-FS-033-38-DDO-8-SEGS-MS64_W0QQitemZ320024036437QQihZ011QQcategoryZ31373QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Maybe in their magazine FS numbered it this way but I think the graders should use the book and stick with FS-033.53 or just say die-3... maybe they were having a bad day.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1972-CENT-DOUBLIE-DIE-FS-103-DIE-3-CRAZY-LOW-START_W0QQitemZ260028876513QQihZ016QQcategoryZ524QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[GarryN]

did you see the text on the link Wavysteps2003 posted for the "tripled die Colorado quarter" She says "Recommend insurance just for piece of mind" Obviously she had "piece of junk" on her mind.

[wavysteps2003]

The finishing price for this piece of junk? $53.00 !!!!!!!!!

Who will take the bet that she will have more of the same on Ebay?

WAVYSTEPS2003 aka BJ Neff