2005 P Ocean View 5c DDRs - Minnesota Transplants

[Russellhome]

The Minnesota quarter proved that high relief trees in the center of the design can be a good recipe for doubled dies. Guess what other coin has a nice tree in the center of the Design? The 2005 Ocean in View nickel! I saw a listing on eBay -- which prompted me to search the flipside of my 5c SMS hoard. Here is what turned up...








On this one I marked the area I suspect is the source of the doubling in red. It is a light 'kiss' - but a heck-of-an offset.















These were all "P" mint Satin Finish nickels and the first 3 were found in Mint Sets and the rest in WJ nickel sets. I contacted the seller of one of these on eBay and he e-mailed me photos of 5 (or so) other SMS OIV DDRs that he'd found. It sounds like the Minnesota Quarter saga all over again. Will they turn up in business strikes? It is worth a look.

Many of these are easy to spot -- no problem with a 10x loop. Several of the ones I found were also previously attributed DDOs. Nobody caught the doubling on the back. In most cases, the reverse doubling is a lot easier to spot.

So - 2005 appears to be banner year for doubled dies. Time to search those nickel sets and mint sets again. Good luck and have fun.

[Gabe]

Well, I know Im going to look through all of my mint sets now for those. Really cool finds!

[Bob P]

Well how cool is that? I have been searching my other statehood quarters, but not the other coinage. Thanks for the great pics...and a searchin we will go!

[Russellhome]

Yep - finding stuff is fun. I too have been searching mint sets for quarters. I had early success - but lately it has been nickel finds that have proved interesting.

I found this wacky thing today... - again an SMS 2005 P Ocean in View nickel. Each photo has a comparison with a regular SMS nickel. Can anyone tell me what is going on here? The entire reverse looks swollen.


Also note the thickness of the line in the lower right.





Is this a DDR? Die wear? Die Polishing? All I know is it looks really wierd.

[Bob P]

This anomaly can occur as the die wears. I found the same thing when I was going through my mint sets tonight, but not to the extreme yours has. I didn't find any DDR nickels either with the exception of a possible that is very minor. Once again, thanks for the heads up. I will start checking business strikes to see if I can find any.

[Russellhome]

Bob -- thanks for the info. I didn't know what to make of it - as it does not look like die deterioration that I've seen before. Perhaps the 'satin finish' has something to do with the strange wear. It may be like striking sand paper.

About these SMS DDR finds... Most types were more easily found in the nickel sets -- and were a lot harder to come by in Mint Set nickels. How did I find so many? I saw cheap 2005 SMS quarter and nickel rolls on eBay in the past 6 months and decided to speculate on them as a long term investment. I ended up with quite a few rolls of each quarter design and the 2 nickel designs. So for the price of less than one complete mint set, I was able to get an entire roll of 40 of a specific quarter or nickel. So when news of quarter and nickel DDRs came out, I had a good stockpile to search. I am not trying to gloat -- it was just luck that I had gone after the SMS rolls while they were cheap and plentiful. I just want people to know that it is not like you will find them in every other set. I found a few dozen doubled dies out of at least two thousand SMS coins. So there are lots of doubled dies in the 2005 Mint Sets and WJ Nickel Sets. I'd guess the hit rate to be about 10% - 20% in nickel sets and much lower in mint sets. So the odds are that you still have to go through quite a few sets to get something.

[Bob P]

Well you can't beat that investment with a stick (Actually you can, but you'll damage the coins)
I did have one nickel set, and it did have a doubled die. It was also one of the nicer ones (WDDO-012). It absolutely amazes me how I could have missed that...especially with as much searching as I normally do. It might be time to get these old eyes checked again.

[Russellhome]

I searched all of these rolls for varieties when I got them. You know what a lincoln cent is supposed to look like. With a new design, it takes a while of looking at the same thing over and over again to get a feel for the design. Plus you don't know where to look for the doubling. Who was looking at rocks, trees, branches, and shorelines, anyway? I - like everyone else was looking at the letters, mint marks, steps and columns. It took some clever finds from other variety hunters for me to take the blinders off and see what I'd been missing.

[Russellhome]

Guess where this 2005 P DDR nickel came from? Need a hint? Well, it is not a proof and it is not Satin Finish.



It is kind of a pitiful DDR compared to some of the SMS DDRs shown above, but it is the first (as far as I know) business strike DDR found in any of the 2004/2005 WJ series nickels. Considering the fact that I only searched 10 rolls before I found it, I think this is the tip of the iceberg. I found 4 in a US Mint wrapped roll.

So now you know where to look and what to look for. The Ocean in View nickels are cheap and plentiful on eBay and elsewhere. Heck - you can still order them from the US Mint by the bag. I am not going to bother to have this weak one listed -- so the race is on. Will you be the first to get 'the big one' and get it listed?

If you have some luck, please add to this post.

[Russellhome]

About this coin... (see more photos above)



I sent it to Billy Crawford and he has listed it as a DDR. I also found out that there is another weaker version of it -- the center looks about the same, but the rim lettering is only slightly stretched.

The explanaton of the doubling is -- more or less -- that this is what happens if the tilted hub does not snap back to center as the pressure increases (as occured with the other DDRs shown above). As the force was applied, the hub just smashed and oozed its way toward the center, stretching and distorting the design elements. On the weaker version, center was reached before most of the rim lettering was impressed on the die, so only the center of the design was distorted. On the 'big one' I show in the photo, the entire reverse was affected.

Billy told me that not all attributors will agree that this is a DDR -- but he is confident that it is.

So - if this stands the test of time and holds up as a true DDR - it is an AWSOME coin. If not, it is pretty cool anyway.

[Bob P]

Well Ken, Billy is right about one thing. Not all of us agree that this is a doubled die and I think he understands why. The tilted hub doubling normally affects the center design elements...not the outer devices. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule, and I will not bad mouth another attributer, no matter how much I may disagree with his opinion. On coins such as this, no one knows for sure exactly how these are made. It seems to me that if the extra thickness happens like he suggests, and the stretch is in a radial direction , then it should look like it is stretching the letters/numbers. If you look at other coins where the letters seem to be extra thick, they are normally in the later die states. If the hub didn't snap back like he suggests, then the detail on one side of the coin should be less severe because it is NOT making even contact with the die. (hence the name of 'tilted hub' doubling. One other thing to look at on this example is the absence of detail such as the upper serif of the F in of. This is another indicator of wear.
Anyway, just like Billy, this is my opinion. As you look at more and more coins, you will find various stages of extra thickness due to die wear. I would not call them all doubled dies, and being able to determine which ones are which is difficult at best.

[Russellhome]

Bob

Thank you for your post. I appreciate your thoughts and professional opinion.

Actually - what you suggest should be there if it is a tilted - letters on one side affected and not on the other - is true on the two different examples I found. I found 3 of a weaker type that mostly affects the enter of the coin -- but the rim letters are normal on one side of the coin and slightly bloated on the other. I found 2 examples of the really fat one that affected the entire reverse. But even on that coin, the letters were 'fatter' on one side than on the other.

I am fairly new to this hobby and am certainly no expert. And of course - I want Billy to be right as a DDR is a much better find than a coin minted with a worn out die. I first heard that Ken Potter was calling it a DDR -- then I was told that he was undecided and he sent it on to John Wexler for his opinion. I am sending my examples to Brian Ribar (who works with Wexler) for his thoughts.

Frankly - it is nice that this hobby has a good group of pros such as yourself who are willing to work together and sometimes to agree to disagree. Controversy - and differing professional opinions about certain varieties is part of what makes the hobby interesting.

[Bob P]

I agree with everything you said Ken. I wish everything was cut and dry, but it is not. I learned everything I know from the folks you mentioned (Ken, Billy, James, Brian and Chuck Daughtrey). Without picking their brains over the years, I wouldn't be doing what I am doing for coppercoins.
Now that you've substantiated some of the details about the opposite side of the coin with what I posted about this morning, I am leaning a bit more toward the other side of it being a doubled die. Still, like Ken Potter, I am not thoroughly convinced, and whether or not I can be concerning this particular coin is questionable.

[Russellhome]

Found a few more good OIV DDRs in mint sets...





There are some really good DDRs in these 2005 P Ocean in View nickels. There are probably 10 or 12 that rank right up there with the best of the MN quarter DDRs. I'm communicating with another 2 collectors/mint set 'cherry pickers' and they have some other OIV DDRs that I have not shown. Amazing that this exciting series of DDRs went undiscovered for over a year!

FYI: Billy Crawford is putting some of the better ones in next issue of DVN magazine. His photos are much better than mine. Plus, he will be showing an overlay of where the doubling comes from. It will be out in a few weeks and it will be really good.

See the 'In the News' forum for a link to Billy Crawfords free Die Varieties magazine.

[Gabe]

Wow, very nice finds. I did look through all of my Ocean view nickels in my mint sets, but found nothing. Its amazing how no body every bothered to look through them, until now for varieties.