2006P 1DR 007 on ebay

[Dick]

ED, Since your post, ( Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:38 pm), concerning the 2004-P DDO, and/or DDR, I have NEVER seen the doubling, until today, while re-reading the posts. I am slowly learning WHAT to look for, and HOW to SEE it! These things don't come in a book! The thing I am saying, maybe, is that the lighting is very important, EVEN WHEN VIEWING! Now I ask, is it more likely that things are more visible in a photo, rather than "in hand"? Or is it just me? Your comments are welcome.
Dick

[coop]

Dick: Sorry I'm not Ed, but only some of the varieties are visable in hand most have to be under some sort of magnification to be seen. Some have to have light hit the coin just the right way to see them. Maybe at first glance you don't see the doubling, but as you turn the coin, then at the right angle....You can see it. Some are visable at almost any angle under the scope. Some change with varing light sources. (Get stronger or weaker) When using two light sources you may get an image of something that is not there at all. The best way to tell is to remove one light source and see if it is still visible. So I only use one light source so as not to get my hopes dashed by something that is nothing. But searching involves more than just reading. It takes time for the eye to develope. In my case i was finding all kinds of crap and asking Chuck is this a RPM? Or this? Or this? The answer was always no, till one day I posted a 1956D-1MM-001. Then I hit paydirt. My first RPM. He tried to get me to search for doubled dies, but I was content with RPMs. Till........................ He sent me a batch of different doubled dies to see under the scope. With my eye focusing on these new things, it wasn't long and I was finding them and enjoying. so what made the difference? Having an example in hand and under the scope. So enjoy images, but pay attention to examples more so in hand. I've seen notches on letters in images, but didn't know that not all of the coin have the same notching or it may have more than on the images. It just depends on the coin that you have. So keep looking and training your eye. It takes a while to develope it and then you will find it get too sensative and you find out what too minor is. Then you back up and find the right zone for your trained eye

[wavysteps2003]

Dick - That is any interesting question that could have two answers. On a photo, it is easy to point out where the anomaly occurs, with the use of arrows and such, to draw the attention of the viewer to the exact spot. However, a photo does not have depth perception and the true form of the anomaly is not seen; example, the valley created by the division line of a doubled die. In a photo it appears mostly as just a line, while under the scope you can see how the division line is the valley between two hills. Of course, you must search for those anomalies on a coin under the scope for unfortunetaly the mint has not yet started putting arrows on the coins to highlight their mistakes. Although it would make things easier, LOL.

Two other thing about photos that can be erksome is one, out of focus pictures and the other is the improper orientation of the object pictured. The first can leave you wondering what you are looking at and it is a ploy that I have seen used on E-bay many times. The second, which is equally as bad, tends to make you a contortionist trying to figure out why it is angled that way. This is again another ploy that is used on E-bay to entice the un-educated to buy a supposed variety coin. And we also see these two mistakes on the forum also.

So Dick that is the two answers with a little added commentary thrown in on the side.

To answer the other question, yes, it was the 2004P-1DO-001 + 2004P-1DR-001 discovery piece, that my wife was given in change at Wal-mart, that was sold on E-bay for $900.00. That was the coin that led me down this dark, long, slipper path into the scary realm of varieties.

You all have a good one and be aware, the 2007 Lincoln cents are coming.

WAVYSTEPS2003 aka BJ Neff

[Dick]

Coop and BJ, I am going to take the liberty of answering each of you, individually, if you don't mind.
Coop, I use a Triplet 10X, for most of my singles, or very small quantities. I use the scope for large amounts, and for detail. Generally, at 10-15X. That way I can see what is in hand, and most of the details, as well. Where I have my problems, is trying to find, (see), the notching in the letters, and/or numbers. Most everything else is quite clear, depending on the amount of "zoom In the case of the photos, yes, I have had problems with light sources! Overhead, scope, desk illumionation, plus any others that might be strong enough to make an indication. I block them as necessary, and they no longer are a problem. The COIN IN HAND is a big factor, for "us newbies", because we havent seen the little "critters", and don't know what to look for, or at! There is where BJ was a big help, but, I still didnt know what I was looking at, even after he sent me one! I saw them, but couldn't see what he was talking about, because I didn't know what a WS was!. I do now!
Now for BJ.
As you say, it is easier with the arrows, but, if I don't see where they indicate, then they are like the road signs, that say: next town, 40 kilometers. It tells you, but doesn't tell you anything, either. I looked at the site, and for the first time saw the line of "demarcation", between the two "strikes". (one stroke, but two images). Not on the "A", due to the angle, but on the "M & E", due to the straight lines involved on the vertical portions. Where there is a possibility of "notches" on Liberty, or elsewhere, I turn the date, and/or liberty upside down, and check, but I can't see them. That is not to say that I haven't seen them in photos, (on site), because I hAve, and that is the reason I turn things "every-which-way!
To you both, thank you, and yes, I'm patiently waiting, although, from what the bank manager told me when I asked if the '07's had come in, yet, and she said :"we don't know. We can't even get boxes of '06's, yet", it may be a while! Good evening, gentlemen!
Dick

[wavysteps2003]

Hi Dick - There is another problem that you run across when using Photos as a guide and that is die state. If you are looking at an EDS photo of a variety and trying to compare it with a LDS in hand coin, you will have a problem for very few identifiers will look that same on the two coins. Die markers won't match, division lines that are on the EDS picture will not be on the LDS coin in hand and the notching, that we rely heavily on to determine if it is indeed a doubled die, will be mush and ill defined.

I can atest to this from working with the 2004 Peace nickel doubled die, DDO-001, and seeing that variety from VEDS down to VLDS; the change between the two was dramatic and this was a fairly strong doubled die.

So, that is something to remember. Try and match your reference picture's die state to the coin in hand die state and this will help clear things up.

BJ Neff

[Dick]

BJ, thanks for the "first clue"! By that I mean, I didn't have the first clue about how to "check" a coin! I always "looked at it, and if it didn't say,:"check my oil and wash the windshield", I Looked "at" it, and then on to the next.
I'll wager that there are many like me, that just don't know where to start, nor how to search, and compare. That is why we are known as "NEWBIES"! This tells me, that to use the site, check a coin at hand, with the references in sight, and then look at the coin for tell-tale marks, (sharp, veds, or "mushy", vlds), assuming one has an error, or variety in mind. In case there are more like me, VEDS: Very early die state, and VLDS, Very Late die state. No wonder I can't find anything! I didn't know what I was looking for! At least, the coins I have "looked" at, are in date-rolls, (not the edible kind), so maybe that in itself was a blessing!
BJ, you have made my day! Thank you!
Dick

[eagames]

Dick,

To answer your original question:

"Now I ask, is it more likely that things are more visible in a photo, rather than "in hand?"

The simple answer for most NEW variety hunters is the minor ones are misleadingly easier to see in photos.
The reason is there are some very skilled photograpers. They get nice photos with the right lighting and magnification that shows what's there. A NEW variety hunter can miss the same thing in hand because of lighting or not enough magnification.

Myself I started collecting cents in the 70s then later saw the more modern DDOs in books and started to look. I looked through what I had and found a few things and thought that was everything. I used my 3x magnifying glass and expected to see things easily that I saw in the books. A lot of stuff I sold probably were some neat varieties I had missed.

A good example was one day I bought a http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1955&die_id=1955d1do001&die_state=lds
I realized with my 3x glass I couldn't see it. I started using a 10X loop and re-checked and I had one all along that I missed.

After that I've seen many things like a 1960-d 1DO-003 that sat in my folder for years until someone possted one on the forum and I re-checked looking for the doubling over the 9 and realized I had one staring me in the face all along.

I think Coop said in a recent post that when he searches rolls if he finds a variety he starts again. I do that, the reason is you find something but you see it shows best upside down or lighted one way so you re-check and find others you missed. Bob recently showed that 95 1DO-001 that he missed, even the best around can miss something that looks big in photos.

So realize that pics are misleading, you need to look close and with the right lighting. So back to your question, in hand you might miss something but if someone hands you a variety and tells you what it is and you look and see it that teaches you what and how look for it. After you find one of something the next is easier. Things like doubled eylids or wavy steps are easy to miss until you learn how to spot them. Re-check things as your skills increase!

[Bob P]

I think Ed made one of the most valid points here. My job as a photographer is to guide you to the anomaly I want you to see. I do that in a number of ways, including arrows, close-ups and lighting. I would bet we have all skipped through a significant amount of varieties in our searches. Factors such as dirt, scratches or the way we hold our coins under the loupe and/or scope make this inevitable. Chuck made a statement in another thread about searching once, then letting them go. We don't all do that, and I am as guilty as the next guy for re-searching rolls.. I think the point Chuck was making was that if you missed it the first time, you never knew you had it in the first place. Therefore, there is no sleep lost and no heartache over what might have been.
If you find something on the second go around, consider yourself fortunate. I know I was with the 95P DDO. That, my friends, is just plain luck

[coop]

On circulated rolls I search once and toss back into circulation. If they are really bad looking, they go back into the rolls without a look. What would someone pay for a crap coin even if it WAS a variety. so I don't give them a first look.
BU coins I save in tubes and may look at again before I would re-sell them. I've found stuff I missed because of lack of training my eye, but I find I keep learning. So I'll give my 700 rolls another look before selling them. The next time around I will also check for GREAT looking coins. Coins worth grading. So there is another reason for the second/third/fourth look on some rolls I accumulated while training my eyes.

[Dick]

Gentlemen, Thank you all. I have a ramp, with a pivot post mounted, which allows me to rotate the coin in place, and see every angle, and seemingly, all details. Not necessarily so, because if I slant the coin a bit more, I get even better "highlighting," but it also blocks much of the detail, due to the glare. It also makes it necessary to re-focus for each change. The plusses equal the minuses. THis in turn, is placed on a "track", which allows it to slide back, and forth. The entire base has to be moved, right, or left, for the final adjustment. All changes require re-focusing, obviously.
The question about the ability so see better in the photos, was very well answered, and I understant the principle. I thought it might be a "side-effect" of my eye condition, (MD), not mechanical....