1963D DDO or Master Die Doubling
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rollmeupabeVeteran Member
Posts: 424
Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Location: Plymouth, Massachusetts
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 Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:20 pm |
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I just received 50 rolls of uncirculated 1963D cents to search. The 9 in 19 seems to be fat in a lot of them but on this one the 9 and 6 appear to have some doubling.
I did not see anything on the site or in Chuck's book that looked like this.
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 coopExpert Member
Posts: 3402
Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:00 pm |
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Looks very promising to me. I'd save them all till you know for sure. that way you don't have to go back and re-find them later. 
_________________
Richard S. Cooper
You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.
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 pennyhoundVeteran Member
Posts: 414
Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:38 pm |
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This is exactly, why it would be so good to get that "Master (Doubling) Die Listing" going.
It's been talked about and was discussed a few times that we were going to get something of this sort going, on the boards here ... but as of yet, guess it's one of the things that is just going to have to wait for now.
I for one ... would like to see this come ... "Master (Doubling) Die Listing" ... sooner ... than later.
Maybe in the interim: just a posting on the forums would do. (separate section, on forums)
With pictures ... that could be transferred over, at a later date.
I know it would help me out immensely. 
(as if our boys: Chuck & Bob, didn't have enough to do, anyways ... lol)
Think this is one of those ... but can't say for sure. 
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 Bob PSite Admin
Posts: 3482
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Niceville, Florida
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:54 pm |
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Master die doubling was discussed in the forum a while ago. I gave a list of all the ones that I knew of, and I believe Chuck added another 1 or 2. Chuck's book lists just about all of the master die doubling known for the Lincoln Cents. It would be a nice thing to have a nice listing of all these, and the new site just might include that. For right now though, I just don't know.
If someone feels ambitious enough, and they have time and Chucks book, they may want to do some research and write them all down and post them here. They may also search through the forum archives and see where it was discussed and annotated before.
A lot of things were discussed, and some things have already been addressed. Others have not been yet. I apologize, but this is a huge undertaking already. Things slip through the cracks occasionally, and no matter how much I plead...there still only remains 24 hours in a day.
As far as the pics posted here of the 96...It is quite possible it is a doubled die, and not master die doubling. As coop suggested, hold on to them for now and we will have a look at them some time down the road.
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Bob Piazza
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pennyhoundVeteran Member
Posts: 414
Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:18 am |
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| Master die doubling was discussed in the forum a while ago. |
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| If someone feels ambitious enough, and they have time and Chucks book, they may want to do some research and write them all down and post them here. They may also search through the forum archives and see where it was discussed and annotated before. |
I had to go back to my first posting to find it ...
4 Aug 2004
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My only purpose in trying to somehow publish the information on the master die doubling is to show people what is considered "normal" and "non-collectible" as it is. Many novice collectors are fooled by master die doubling and purchase them from either unknowledgeable or ruthless sellers who pawn them off as doubled dies because CONECA and Breen had listed them as such...doubled dies, that is. My intent is to keep people from being taken by these very common pieces and concentrate on something that may be of value...not to issue die numbers to this common form of doubling and follow suit with the others who assigned variety numbers to them thus confusing a number of collectors.
So...when I get time, I will photograph the attributes of common master die doubling from each of the different dates on which it occurs and will publish the information from the date guide of the date affected. Beyond that, I will list die varieties only - not master die doubling, clashes, die chips, machine doubling, or errors - in the die variety system. I like a clean, tidy ship that's easy to navigate and easy to understand. I want it to be abundantly clear that master die doubling is very common and not worth a hoot because it is so common, but I agree with you in that it needs to be exposed for what it is. People need to see it and learn to recognize it. |
1932: Both mints; Light master die doubling is visible underneath the upper part of the 32 of the date.
1935: all three mints; a circular depression inside the lower portion of the 5 of the date, the ridge that connects the end of the 5 with the top half of the 5, appears to have come from the galvano that created master dies for the year.
1936: An odd anomaly that shows on many 1936 cents is a broken 'R' of LIBERTY; also seen on some of the many doubled dies for this date. These are an interesting curiosity but do not warrant premium value unto themselves because they are quite common.
1937: Light master die doubling is visible on the top of the 7 of the date on about half of the coins minted.
1937: WH-1-O-II-C * Very light spread on IN GOD WE TRUST, eye and the right side of 937, the doubling is on the working hub, affecting 10-12 working dies.
1938: all three mints; master die doubling shows as a doubling of the 8 of the date, noticed by the doubling to the south inside the lower loop and on the bottom of the digit 8.
1938: MD-1-O-III * (P,D,S) Doubling evident as an 8/8 in date.
1940: Master die doubling occurs on the '40' of the date. Very light on the outer right edge and inside left edge of the zero and on the right edge and end of the crosslet in the four.
1944: Master die doubling commonly found on the last two 4's of the date, as appears as doubled corners and serifs of the last two digits. This can take ob slightly different forms depending on the age of the master die and working hubs at the time the working hbs and working dies were created. They will, however, always have the same split corners of the lower most area of the four digits in the date.
1944: MD-1-O-III * (P,D,S) Doubling evident on 44 of date.
1946: MD-2-O-III (3) * (P,D,S) Doubling evident on nose, lips, chin, throat, chest and bow tie.
1948: Master die doubling visible on most 1948 cents shows as light extra thicknes especially noticeable in 'TRUST'.
1948: MD-1-O-VI * (P,D,S) Light extra thickness on all lettering and date.
1952: Master die doubling shows in the form of doubling in the date. Shows in different areas of the date on many 1952 cents.
1955: Master die damage caused doubling in the upper 'BE' of LIBERTY on many cents this year, very common at all three mints.
1955: MD-6-O-III * (P,D,S) Doubling on lower LIBERTY.
1957: Master die doubling is mainly visible in 'GOD' of the motto, showing as a minor spread on the bottom edge of these letters, especially the 'D'.
1957: MD-4-O-II-E * (P,D,Pr) Medium spread on 'D WE' of GOD WE.
1958: Master die doubling shows as a thin curve on the upper left part of the 8, and the master die gouge on the top right corner of the 8 that is commonly but mistakenly reffered to as a 7 digit. The "nub" on the top right part of the 8 and the once in a while diagonal lines running through the 8 are die gouges created by the reduction lathe at the time the master hub was created. This supposed 8 over 7 shows on most 1958 cents and is not an over date.
1958: MD-3-O-III * (P,D) Doubling evident medium as extra loop left of 8 of date.
1960: Master die doubling is evident inside the upper area of the 'E' and on the end of the center crosslet of the 'E' of WE, on most of the large date variety cents.
1960: MD-4-O-II-E * (P,D,Pr) Light spread on IN GOD WE TRUST. Markers: Small date
1961: Master die (minor) doubling, shows toward the center of the design in 'GOD' of the motto. This doubling is sometimes combined with other doubling, so be mindfull of that. Do not discount every coin with this doubling as master die doubling only.
1961: MD-1-O-II-C * (P,D,Pr) Light spread on IN GOD WE TRUST and date.
1962: MD-4-O-II-E * (Pr) Medium spread on date.
1964: The 4 of the date on many 1964 business strike and proof cents has been the cause of controversy in that many examples show very minor doubling above the crosslet on the far right side of the digit. While these have been considered individual doubled dies in the past, it is the option of this author (Charles D. Daughtrey) that most of these were caused by either a doubled master die or a doubled working hub. Far to many of them exist for this anomaly to have occurred on each individual die involved. These should not, however, be confused with true doubled dies that show stronger doubling in the same area.
1965: One subject of note, is that the 5 digit of the date has a notch in the center where the curve meets the upright. 1965 was the only year that this style of five, was used, causing some confusion amoung collectors. These have been reported as doubled dies and sold as doubled dies in the past, but are a normal part of the design.
1970: WH-2-O-VII * (P,D,S) Doubling evident as extra bar under L of LIBERTY and over 7 of date. Markers: Low 70 / Level 70
1970: WH-4-O-VII * (P,D,S) Doubling evident as extra bar high over 7 of date. Markers: Low 70 / Very High 70
1970: WH-5-O-VII * (P,D,S) Doubling evident below horizontal cross bar of 7 and below 0 of date. Markers: Low 70 / Very low 70
1970: WH-6-O-VII * (P,D,S) Doubling evident as extra bar above 'L' of LIBERTY.
1971: None listed in Daughtrey's (above) book, but see below.
Taken from a note received from Attributation Service from another source; three coins I had sent in:
1971 posted on 4 Aug 2004
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" (1 & 2) These are from the same die as per the die scratches on the upper reverse. The only doubling I can see is on the date. The upper first 1 and the outside of the 71. This is a Master Die Doubled Obverse (MDO). There are two master dies for 1971. The other does not have the doubling on the date, but has a stronger outline to the bowtie. I haven't done any studies yet to see if either is rare.
(3) Different die, but from the MDO. |
From what I gather from the above, same light doubling except for the doubling of the date. This being the second master die turned in.
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| The other does not have the doubling on the date, but has a stronger outline to the bowtie. |
1971: FS-1C-030.7 (5-O-IV *) Doubled Die Obv, doubling shows as a secondary image north on the 'RTY' of LIBERTY and on the 9 and 7 of the date.
Comments: (from "Cherrypickers' Guide to Rare Die Varieties") Some specialists feel this is not a doubled die. John Wexler recently published a study where he concludes it is abrasion doubling. James Wiles agreed and deleted the listing from CONECA files.
1972: Master die doubling (formally known as Die # 5) is very common to 1972 cents: MD-5-O-I-CW+II-C *(P,D,S,Pr) PUP: Light spread on LIBERTY, IN GOD WE TRUST and 2 of the date. Apparently two working hubs were affected. One is evidenced by a gouge in the upper 'S' of TRUST, the other by a gouge in the upper 'R' of TRUST. It shows to differing degrees depending on the condition of the die when it was struck.
1973: The 3 digit in the date has an odd shape which is sometimes mistaken for a doubled die. The center of the numeral exhibits a split and the outside edge sometimes looks doubled, depending on the die state of the coin and the condition of the hub when the die was created. This is normal and should be disreguarded. This is the only year of cents on which this particular 3 digit was used.
1974: Two different date sizes for this year. Large date: has very little clearance between the rim and the letters of IN GOD WE TRUST and thicker, more blunt digits in the date. Small date: has more space between the motto and the rim and has sharper, more pointed digits in the date. Both types were struck at all of the mints in business strike, however all proofs cents are all large dates. Due to lack of knowledge of the large and small dated cents, a number of large date cents were reported as being class 6 doubled dies, due to their much larger thicker nature. There are some class 6 doubled dies for the large date variety, however some experience, patience and good images to use as a guide will at first be necessary to discern the differences between the doubled dies and normal coins.
1979D: The corner broke off of a mint mark punch in 1979 causing many 1979D cents to have a split serif. This is not a repunched mintmark and should be disreguared as such.
Ref.:
1st Book: Looking Through LINCOLN CENTS Chronology of a Series
(*) = ref'ed to:
The CONECA U.S. Doubled Die Master Listing dated 1994
&
The Cherrypickers' Guide to Rare Die Varieties
Last edited by pennyhound on Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:36 am; edited 42 times in total
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Bob PSite Admin
Posts: 3482
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Location: Niceville, Florida
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:55 am |
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Very well done Ron. You've been very thorough so far. If there is anything to add when you are finished, we will add it then. Your research and hard work wil be copied to a word document, and added as a whole on the new site should we not have that info already typed out. I really appreciate you taking this on.
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Bob Piazza
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bobp@coppercoins.com
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pennyhoundVeteran Member
Posts: 414
Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:29 pm |
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OK Bob ...
Think that does it, from what I had to go by.
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Bob PSite Admin
Posts: 3482
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Niceville, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:42 am |
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Very well done indeed! I need to take some time and review the list. I have a couple of items I need to research (especially the 1970 ones) as I do not believe those to be master die doubling). I also may have a couple to add to the list. Your work is thorough and I apprciate your effort. We will let others address this list as well, and then I will make a copy and we will post it in its own secion on coppercoins.com. Thanks again!
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Bob Piazza
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bobp@coppercoins.com
mustbebob1@gmail.com
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pennyhoundVeteran Member
Posts: 414
Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:08 am |
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Pleased to have contributed.
The:1970: WH-2 / WH-4 / WH-5 /WH-6 (O-VII)'S
were taken from:
The CONECA U.S. Doubled Die Master Listing, dated 1994
and are not listed as such in the CONECA listing as such, now as thy don't list MD's or WH's any longer. (and may have changed, since 1994) however the others' listed do match, with other referenced, references. (listed at bottom of the list)
I also checked the following:
The Cherrypickers' Guide to Rare Die Varieties (3rd Edition)
Does list die 5 as: (MD 5-O-VII)
The Authoritative Reference On Lincoln Cents
The Cherrypickers' Guide to Rare Die Varieties (4th Edition)
The Lincoln Cent Doubled Die
A Quick Reference to the top Lincoln Cent Die Varieties
The Standard Guide to the Lincoln Cent (3rd Edition)
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