Opinions Please

[lucky2]

Would it be safe to assume that Lincolns Knees,( on the Reverse of the Lincoln cent), if oversized like he was wearing knee pads indicates a Doubled Die? I have seen a number of these type coins on many dates but other doubleing does not seem to be there.~lucky2

[Bob P]

That is a great question Robert. I have noticed the same thing for many years. It seems that some coins just show it better than others. In either case, I have seen many of them, but that still doesn't answer that question. I wouldn't think it would be a doubled die. Off the cuff, I would say it's part of the design, but I certainly wouldn't bet anything on that opinion.

[coop]

I would think that it is a doubled die, but too minor to list or sell. I think the site has the right idea about the size of bars. If it is not loner than the arms on Lincoln, it is too small to list. I've seen smaller ones, but dismissed them as not large enough to save.

[lucky2]

Bob and Coop
Yes I know they would be too minor to mess with, thats why I did not get very excited ofer them. Just another false alarm in my case but I thought I would ask any way. Thanks~lucky2

[Bob P]

OK Coop...test question. If you were to consider the thick knees a doubled die...which class would you put it in? What is doubled? In addition, why would ONLY the knees be affected? I would think that if the knee was affected, the leg should be also..don't you?? In reality, we are talking about one knee only.
I just looked through a large handful of memorial cents, and found the same thing on cents dating all the way back to 1993. It was also very prevalent in a large number of coins.
The more I look at it, the more I am convinced that it is a design issue. Next thing I looked for was a coin with the doubled knees, and the knee pad thingy. Our 2006D-1DR-001 shows that exact thing. Any other input as to why that would be?

[lucky2]

Bob
That just might be master doubleing of some sort.~lucky2

[Bob P]

I just plain don't know Robert. To me it seems much too common to be anything but a portion of the design. I sure wish I had all the answers, but it sure is fun discussing these things.

[coop]

Bob: If each die carries the same doubling, unless it is like you said a tooling error, it would be on this one die. I don't think it is master die doubling or we would see quite often. I've never found one yet that type of doubling. I thought I did once, it had knees above the feet, but found out later it happened to be two nicely placed bumps. It would be something that BJ would be more familiar with, but maybe it isn't a doubled die as I have not seen it. So I may have spoken out of turn.

[eagames]

Does this idea sound reasonable

When a working hub is made from a well used master die the center element is likely to be wider/flattened out and outer elements will shift towards the rim. Since the knees are about in the center they show it as being wider. I have no clue why one knee would show it more.

If that's the case it's not a doubled die, if that second hubbing (on non single squeeze) was done with a newer or older master die then it would be a ddo with spread towards or away from the rim.

These wide knees on "single squeeze" could just be a sign of the wear on the master die.

Any thoughts?

[wavysteps2003]

The single squeeze die process has a couple of ways that doubled dies appear. The first type, which normal appears around the center of the coin shows a well defined doubling, etc.: Lincoln's extra body parts, extra columns, extra trees (the Minn. quarter). This seems to occur when the hub is offset to the die and the error or offset is correct by lifting the hub back off the die, resetting the hub to die correctly and then continuing the process. The other form of doubling is refered to as "snap back". This occurs for the same reason, a die to hub offset, however, in this case, the hub or die offset error is not corrected by the press operator and during the hubbing, through pressure, the hub and die align correctly to each other. The best examples of this are 2004P-1DR-001 and 2004-1DR-002, where the letters in the motto are elongated or smeared. This is caused by either the hub or die moving while the process is happening. If you look closely at 2004P-1DR-002, you will see a shift to the east and also to the north. If the hub was the object moving, then the movement is in the direction of the shift. If the die is the object moved, then that movemnet is in the opposite direction.

Large knee caps on Lincoln would indicate die to hub movemnt that has been corrected through pressure. If there were seperate knee caps, then the other scenario would hold true. The reason that only the knees are affected is that they, being closer to the center of the hub and with the die being conical shaped, are affected first and the correction (offset) may have taken place before the hub reached the leg area. That also holds true for some of the smeared extra columns (yes, there are two different types of extra columns also), if you look closely, you can see the difference, although the smeared extra column is far less common than the other type.

Other examples of "snap back" doubled dies are the numerous ones found on LIBERTY and the DATE of this year, 2006. While you will see notching on this form of doubling, well defined, valleyed, division lines are not seen.

There is one more form of doubling (actually design ellement extension) and that is seen in the anomalies called wavy steps and trails. This form of doubled die is still unexplained, however, it is connected to the single squeeze process.

The last lit bit of news is that Ken Potter just informed me that I have found the 14th Minnesota quarter DDR. Interestingly enough, John Wexler in his article in Coin World concerning a matte proof Minnesota quarter, commented on the "trails" that were coming of the tops of the trees.

You all have a good one.

WAVYSTEPS2003 aka BJ Neff

[coppercoins]

My personal opinion take on this...if you're noting the thickness of the knees on the statue inside the memorial you're looking far too closely.

[Bob P]

BJ...Congrats on finding a Minnesota Extra Tree variety. I finally took the plunge and looked at the 12 Minnesota coins I had here, and believe it or not, found 4 different extra tree types! I know Ken Potter has them listed on his site with pictures (up to #011), and I can't attribute these to any of those with the exception of one which might be #009. I guess I should have looked sooner!

[wavysteps2003]

Great going Bob - These guys may just as neumerous as the 2006 Lincoln cent obverse doubled dies. Even so, it is very interesting stuff and focuses the collectors back on to the doubled die and varieties (FINALLY, I HOPE).

To all out there, take a careful look at the Minnesota quarters that you have; you may have a doubled die on your hands !!!!!.

WAVYSTEPS2003 aka BJ Neff

[lucky2]

The way it looks with the Minnesota Quarters I may have just recived the rarest ones in change last week. Absolutely no doubleing at all. ~lucky2