1997P 1DR-001????

[Steven]

Found this one and it looks like the 1997P 1DR-001 but none of the small die chip markers are there. What do ya think.
Steven

[Bob P]

Steven,
Actually, by posting this pic, you gave me an opportunity to state something I have observed over the past year or so. I received a coin from eagames that he thought might be a particular variety but had none of the markers. He sent it to me, and I was able to verify that it was what he thought it was, and in the same die state as the one I put on the site. However, his coin had heavy die cracks on the skull and a new reverse die yet was the same die state. This brings up a couple of points. Die markers seem to come and go very rapidly on some of these new dies. The dies now days very rarely make it to LDS. Die progression wear and damage is faster than any time I can remember. This makes it a little tougher to attribute some dies, but with micro analysis, it can be done.
As far as your coin goes, it does look like die 001. I would think it may be slightly before the markers developed.

[Steven]

Thanks Bob.

Steven

[wavysteps2003]

Let me add to Bob's statement concerning wavy steps and their attribution. Since these anomalies occur in repetitive patterns, two exact wavy steps with the same pattern maybe from different dies. There are five direction associated with wavy steps; 160, 170, 180, 190 and 200 degrees. This is further broken down into emphasis on the left, the right on no emphasis on wavy steps with a direction of 180 degrees.

Now to the die in question. From the pictures, it is a different wavy step die, due to the step deviation seen under column # 9. 1997P-1DR-001 does not have that. I'll see if I can ID this die tomorrow by the picture.

BJ Neff

[Dick]

Steven, those "steps" are nearly as strong as the ones I have found on the few 2007-P cents that I have. Every one that has wavysteps, also has severe die cracks on the OBV, and mostly in the same place on every coin. Those that have NO cracks, have NO steps! They run about 30-40% in each roll. David can verify this. His seem to be of the same run. I got mine from him.
Dick

[eagames]

Dick,

The cracks are probably not related to the wavy steps but on the coins you have in that state they all have cracks, so the cracks you see are a marker for that state of the particular wavy step you have in the die state that they are in.

The wavy steps are created when the die is made, they're there when the die is new and stay on it through its life. In some later state the obv cracks appear as a marker for that state.

If you found the same wavy step in an earlier state it won't have cracks. The reason you see them on every coin is they are all the same exact variety in the same die state after it has the cracks. (they are all from the same batch of rolls so they are the same variety and same die state)

It's good that you notice the fact that they have both things together, this is why markers are helpful, it helps you see they are truly from the same die.

[Dick]

[Rhubarb]

Dick,

I too have similar Die Crack's. I have the same die crack on a few coin's running N/W to S/E. I also have them running E-W across the hair. Also spot's were a blob or a crack is starting. I've not finished 1 roll yet. I am dilligently looking thru old post as to what a WavyStep is, and what to actually look for. This is a new area for me so I am taking my time to find out. I will eventually post something with a picture. This is going to be a slow process.

Concerning the Roll's at the bank, She gave me 2 ea. bundles of 10. I don't know if any of them were from the same batch.

I did get 25 ea. roll's of 2006 P from a different bank. That was all they would let me have.


David

[eagames]

Dick,

I think you're getting one thing confused.

The term "single squeezed" is for making dies not coins. It means they press (squeeze) the hub into the die once (single) to make the die so it has nothing to do with minting coins it has to do with making coin dies. Single squeeze is for the die making process not the coin minting process. That is why we expected no more hub doubled DDOs with single squeeze because if they only press the hub into the die once it should have eliminated them shifting in between multiple hubbings.

They never changed the the coin minting process because they always only struck coins once when minting coins (ignoring errors that get struck twice) but on making proof coins they do strike more than once.

[eagames]

David,

Typically when you get new unc rolls from a given box at a bank they are a mix of coins from about 10-20 different dies. You mostly get a mix of those same different dies in each roll. Each of those dies will probably be in different states.

So for example if there was a DDO die in the mix you get a few of the same variety in each roll and probably every one of each variety is in a very similar state but each different die can be in different states from the other dies.

Still some mixing happens so you might get a few coins from other dies mixed in. This is why we look at every coin. I imagine the mint filling bins or hoppers with coins from the dies in use the time. At any time during the day they might swap out a damaged die or remove one for polishing or cleaning. Then they fill shipments from those bins so you might get that oddball floating in the same bin. If you get a lucky box you might get a lot of some variety in the same box or you might find just one of something in a whole box.

Murph might have something to add to this, he searches a lot of unc boxes so he can explain how mixed or random things are within boxes.

[Rhubarb]

Thank's Ed,

I often wondered about the "Single Squeeze" process. I too was under the impression that it was the "Coin" not the "Die" that was single squeezed. Thank's for clearing that up early for me. I understand the Hopper thing with the coin's there delivered to the plant where there "Wrapped" and dumped into a hopper as many as the hopper will hold. By reading Bob's post about not finding many LDS coin's, there's no telling what one may find.


Just a question: Does old abe on the reverse have a cast on his right leg? I have one that the right leg is quite larger than the left.

I'm at work right now. I will post picture tonite.


Thank's Ed.

David

[eagames]

Yes I've seen the cast on many of them.
Sometimes he wears some knee pads too!

I guess he was tall and kept hurting that leg

BTW the mint does not roll cents at all. They sell them by weight in huge lots (I think $2000 face value) then those go to the armoured car companies or coin rolling places who roll them and put them in $25 boxes and deliver to banks who give them to merchants.

Before about 1999 or 2000 the mint shipped in $50 bags but that is no longer done. This is why you won't get big off centers now because the coin rolling places find them when they roll them since they won't fit in rolls. In bags you could get any odd shaped coins. I have no idea if the coin rolling companies keep the off centers or return them to mints.

[coop]

Usually if an item is closer to the camera, the larger it looks. If a painting has one leg looking larger they are trying to convey the idea of it being closer not larger. On a sculpture as it is in prortion (Having depth to it) the appendages are the same size. The images/painting at one dimentional and the larger/closer look is enhanced with the size difference. I took a picture of my wife the other day (She don't want it shown in public) but she was holding a glass that was closer to the camera than she was and it looked twice as big as it would in reality. Just happened that way. We weren't trying to do it. But we noticed how much bigger the glass appeared when it was not that big in comparrison. Another example. Have your wife sit on a chair and take an image directly in front of her a few feet away with the camera at her eye level and include her legs and feet. Because the knees are closer to the camera they look larger. I think that is what they are trying to show on the Statue on the reverse of Abe. They are just indicating one leg closer or larger.

[Rhubarb]

Coop,

I understand you analogy, Why would they make him that way?

Question: On column #8 I have a wider spread from 2/3 up from the step's than the bottom 1/3. Is this normal? I would post a picture's but battery's charging.

I edited this: The bar or inside line against the back of the coin is the one I was asking about.




David

[eagames]

I think you mean the extra bar that's always on the right side of column 5 and left side of column 8.

Those are normal but on dies that have been worn or polished a lot or weak strikes they dissapear, probably on the coin it just disapeared in one area first.