Slabs or no slabs?

[ty]

3rd party grading is a very useful tool for the buyer. Yes, it is true that a lot of colonial coin collectors do not like slabs. I personally like slabs because I'm not educated enough (YET) in the proper grading skills.

[GarryN]

I have also heard that many colonial coin collectors do not or have not slabbed coins, so the population reports on these coins are not reflective of the surviving populations. I do have one such coin, the New Jersey Narrow Shield. I think it is PCGS VF25. Purchased at a local coin shop. I like slabs only because it protects the coins from damage and gives some assurance of authenticity. I would love to have a Fugio cent someday and a Franklin Token. Harlan Berk's in Chicago recently had a 1781 Libertas Americana medal for sale for about $2,800. It is gone now.

[Mark]

Garry;

In truth, I think most serious colonial collectors hate and despise slabs. I recall the hostile discussions when PCGS announced they would slab colonial coins. Serious colonial collectors like to weigh their coins, measure their coins, and otherwise interact with them, all of which are precluded once the coin is slabbed. Nowadays, these serious collectors tend to mock PCGS's grades. (Of course, EAC memmbers mock EVERYONE's grades. ) This mocking might or might not be justified--I don't claim the expertise to tell.

Now, my personal preference precisely echoes yours: I like slabbed colonials because I have a greater assurance of authenticity and protects them from damage.

Mark

[Dana]

I realize the main discussion has been colonials, but would still like to share some comments on slabs.

If you cannot trust your eyes, then I really think a slab is necessary. I don't mean to sound sarcastic here. I've been collecting coins for over thirty years now (started collecting coins before I started Kindergarten).

To educate myself in the higher grade uncirculateds, I literally looked at thousands of coins, slabbed and unslabbed, for the coin type I wanted to purchase. I started heavily collecting higher MS grades about 5 years ago, and started with Peace Dollars.

Ultimately, I've moved into coppers as well. I looked at as many large cents, pics on the internet, books, etc. as I could, before purchasing my first unslabbed large cent. I've been lucky enough to get a few MS 63's for $75 to $85, and recently won an MS 63 Brown 1838 Large Cent for $73+ in an auction. In this case though, the scan on E-bay was bad, but I trusted the seller because of prior business. I just got lucky. Also picked up a red/brown MS 64 Large Cent for $130+ about 6 months ago.

Also, to note: It seems deals like this have been harder to find lately.

I guess to sum it up--there is a lot of crap out there that dishonest sellers are trying to pass off as MS. If you don't have a very educated eye, you could pay an uncirculated price for a circulated cent. I would hate to see a fellow collector get ripped off by a disreputable seller.

But if you take the time to truly educate yourself, there are better deals to be found in unslabbed coins. Think of it as preparing yourself for a treasure hunt.

[Bob P]

Very well said Dana. There are indeed many idiots trying to pass off coins on ebay that are less than desireable. You hit the nail right on the head when you said education was the key here. That's what this forum and site is for. We want your collecting experiences to be exciting, so we try to pass on as much good information as possible.
As far as the slabbing process goes, some people like slabs, others don't. With the advent of the slabbing services, and the addition of more and more of them, slabs have left a rather bad taste in some peoples mouths. The questions now become which grading service is the best, and which one is more reputable and accurate. Remember we are talking about opinions here. Unfortunately, I have seen and heard of a number of coins that have been returned either under or over graded. By who's standards? That just brings up another question.
It all comes down to what you want. If you are not comfortable with your own grading eyes, then you have to rely on someone elses. In addition, another question is whether or not you are willing to put out the extra cash a slab demands.
Just as Dana said....EDUCATION is the key. We, as a community can help each other make collecting a much nicer experience.

Bob P

[Dana]

Bob,

Thank you for the compliment. I appreciate that. You make some very good points.

If I buy unslabbed "MS coins" on E-bay or another online auction, I always ask the following questions:

1. Does the coin have full cartwheel luster, including on the devices?

2. Does the coin have any hairlines or scratches?

3. Has the coin been cleaned?

4. Do you have a return policy?


The reasons why I ask these questions:

1. If the coin does not have full cartwheel luster (except perhaps for early coppers and some others), it is posible the coin has been dipped, is a circulated coin, etc.

If the cartwheel luster is not on the devices (higher areas of the coin), it is possible the coin is AU (About Uncirculated).

2. If there are hairlines, the coin may have been rubbed (cleaned). Personally, I just hate scratches of any kind.

3. Has the coin been cleaned? Questions 1 and 2 may already answer this. But if the seller says something like "The coin has not been cleaned, but it has no cartwheel luster and some hairlines"---BEWARE!! Don't buy that coin.

An uncirculated coin could have some hairlines (from storage in an album). But most uncirculated coins have cartwheel luster.

4. The return policy is also important. If the seller does not have a return policy, I'd hesitate.

[Bob P]

I can't add anything to that! I hope that the sellers are willing to give those answers. It kind of lets you know if they know what they are talking about in the first place.
I will be writing an article for the site soon on dealing with E-Bay and other auctions sites. I have accumulated much information that should benefit those who are uncomfortable or unknowledgeable about the auction circuit. Once the new home page is revealed by Chuck, I suspect the article will be there.
BTW...Another kind of seller to stay away from are those who are selling things for their friends, brothers, sisters, parents, dogs, cats, mice, kangaroos and the like. This is not true in all cases, but the majority will claim ignorance to sell items. Sure would be nice if we could eyeball everything we want before purchasing it.

Bob P

[Dana]

Bob,

I think your article will be a great reference for everyone, and am looking forward to reading it.

Thanks,

Dana

[Bob P]

Tinkerer,
I am sorry if you had a few bad experiences on Ebay. There are many reputable sellers out there, but some of us had to learn the hard way on who they were. This forum is a great place to learn those things as well as picking up valuable information about your future purchases. The on-line store for coppercoins.com is fast approaching. We will have many nice varieties for sale as well as other great coins. Be looking for it. Chuck will pretty much guarantee your satisfaction as well as putting nice pictures in there for coins valued over $5.00 so you can see what you are getting. This might be an easier and more secure way of getting coins you want without having to deal with the hassles of Ebay.

Bob P

[GarryN]

I have bought some stuff off ebay, almost two dozen elongated cents, two low cost Lincolns from 15 different sellers. I also bought some CD sleeves for my kid. I have been fortunate that the coin sellers I have dealt with are all honest and easy to work with. My rule is to bid on something that has a good photo attached. I would not bid on anything without a photo. Also, I deal with sellers that have an extensive feedback file. I only had one problem with a seller, who sent me the wrong elongated cent. But I only paid $6 and it would have cost me a few dollars and some time to return it. So I kept it.

You also have to discipline yourself and set a limit on what you are willing to bid. I have seen people bid up coins that are not worth a fraction of the winning bid. I dont understand it. I would rather wait and find a similar coin in a real coin shop than get in a bid war over something.

Again you have to be patient. Dont buy compulsively. You may buy something and see something better and less expensive a week later.

[joecoin]

[GarryN]

Rick Snow of Eagle Eye Rare Coins told me he has suggested a solution to the edge problem on slabbed coins. There are some varieties of cents that have reeded edges and those coins with gripped edges, or other uncommon edge treatment get their value because of that. Anyway, Mr. Snow said that if the edge of the plastic that grips the coin were cut in a triangle pattern, you could see at least a small portion of the edge under magnification. Apparently none of the grading companies have taken up his suggestion.

[smed]

One of the main problems on EPAY is that even established sellers are selling crap. It's very chancy to buy an unslabbed coin (even then you have to take into account which service) even if it has good pics.

I do not like PCGS. Why? ONE Because any coin they grade today is market graded. I was looking at their grading book today at the coin store, and if you can read between the lines it's all over the place. TWO Their customer service is non-existent for the little guy. THREE Their holier-than-thou attitude.

ANACS is great for attribution and authentication. They tend to overgrade circ coins a few points and their slabs are the second easiest to crack. Only PCI is easier.

NGC is my service of choice for now. I think their grading is pretty well on, they have EXCELLENT customer service, and service in general.

The rest of them are hit and miss as far as grading.

[GarryN]

I agree, smed, the grading book PCGS published is replete with references to market grading. As far as Early Copper is concerned, they admit virtually all grading is market grading. There is alot of corrosion and porosity in early copper and none of it would be graded if it wasnt market graded. It seems their technical grading is limited to lower cost less appealing coinage, modern coins, common earlier coins, etc. But if I may disagree about customer service, I sent in a Buffalo nickel and I had three emails with Rick Montgomery and one telephone conversation with him and two graders about the coin and they finally agreed to slab it. I thought that was pretty cool. Until then, however, I agree their "customer service department" was a bit arrogant about it. "We sent it back, nothing can be done" Rick is at NGC now and NGC seems to be very innovative these days with their new multi coin slabs and the GSA grading.

[smed]

Found this auction while browsing yahoo auctions. http://page.auctions.shopping.yahoo.com/auction/82025815?aucview=0x23

It's a good reason not to trust a NumisTrust holder.

Not that anyone should need a reason -- it should already be ASSuMEd.