How do you differentiate "Die State" vs. coin wear

[rollmeupabe]

I often have multiple copies of a variety coin that have the same general characterstics but in looking at this site or CONECA there will be multiple die stages or die states listed. Sometimes one coin looks more worn than another but I don't know if it is because the die that made it was worn or if the worn coin has had more wear due to circulation.

Today I was lucky and found 3 1942S 1DO-002 varieties. I took pictures of the same areas of each coin to compare. Here is the obverse of each coin.

Coin 1

Coin 2

Coin 3

Here is the date. One coin 1 the numbers appear flatter and fatter. The doubling on the 4 is evident but not as sharp. Coin 2 appears to have the most crisp appearance and coin 3 is in between. The mint mark on coin 1 also looks different. It does not have the notch at the top that coin 2 and 3 show. The mint mark on coin 2 shows some machine doubling.

Coin 1

Coin 2

Coin 3

Here is the WE. On coin 1 you could almost miss the doubling since the division lines are not as clear. On Coins 2 and 3 you can clearly see the doubling.

coin 1

Coin 2

Coin 3

Here is the GOD section. In this case coin 3 is the easiest to see the doubling. Coin 2 is visible with closer inspection and coin 1 would be easy to miss.

coin 1

Coin 2

Coin 3

My conclusion would be that coin 1 is a later die state which explains why the letters are flatter and fatter and the doubling is less apparent. Coin 2 and 3 are probably from the same die state but the amount of wear on the coins gives them a slightly differnt appearance.

[coop]

Interesting coins. But coin wear and die wear is two different things. Circulated coins tend to look more like your coin one. This is from normal wear the wider fatter numbers/letters.
Machine doubling can happen on any die, doubled or not.
A place I examine for die wear is on the L on LIBERTY. The devices closer to the rim, outside edge of the die are usually affected the most. as for die states, I can't tell from your images. Circulated examples it is a little hard to determine die state, but it can be done. First you should see if you have a marker that is noticable on all three coins. A dis scratch/gouge/weak wheat ears/die scratches through T on CENT on the reverse. That way you can be sure all three examples are from the same dies. But die wear will show on some die states and not on others or vice versa. So could you post images of the L on LIBERTY to see if there is wear there? That might help to identify the die states. Also if you can find that common marker that would help to determine if they are from the same die pair. Sometimes Obverse/reverse dies can be changed and the markers may not be the same of all coins from a certain die pair. But if they are all three the same die, you've found a great thing. I don't think I've gotten even one of them yet.

[eagames]

Are you sure the 3 coins are 1DO-001?

I don't see any sign of the RPM.
Can you see anything of the RPM?

[rollmeupabe]

Good catch Ed. The variety is 1942S 1DO-002. I edited the original post.

[rollmeupabe]

Coop, these are the LIBE letters from each coin.

Coin 1

Coin 2

Coin 3

[eagames]

Yep all 3 are 1DO-002.


There are probably 3 things that make them look different:

Coin wear
Die state
Strike

Not seeing the doubling clearly on the motto can be from die state or also be because of the strike being not as good.

[coppercoins]

All three coins are early to mid die state.

Die wear is from the top down, die state is from the bottom up.

Die state is wear on the die that makes the coin, and has nothing to do with wear on the coin. The outer edges of the outer devices will start to lose definition with die wear. This is the most major determining factor of die state.

With wear on the coin, the highest points of the letters will wear down, thus wearing off the separation lines that show on doubled dies.

[Dick]

Chuck, Thanks for defining the die state, and die wear.. I didn't know what each term referred to, exactly. The wear on the coin is obvious. The terms, ESDS, MDS LDS, actually refer to the die state, at the time of the strike, rather than the coin's "present state". MMMM, I'm Learning.
Dick

[JRocco]

Die state vs Coin wear vs soft strike

Many times a coin is misgraded as a lower grade that is actually a soft strike. Likewise, is a flat spot on a coin a poor/soft strike or die wear.
I have found that the best way to describe the difference is to look at the flat area with a good glass. A flat spot from a poor strike will show basically flat metal with no detail. A flat spot on a coin due to wear and not a soft strike will look like a birds nest of tiny lines going in all directions, it will look like.....a birds nest.
Now a flat spot on a coin due to cabinet friction or what is called slide friction or slide marks will look under the glass like a series of lines on the coin all going in the same direction, completely unlike the birds nest appearance of a circulation spot. Many do not consider slide marks wear or rub, but I do.

As for a worn die as opposed to a soft strike, Chuck's description is complete.