CONECA Top 100 Lincoln RPM varieties

[GarryN]

Ken Potter provided an article in the June 7 2004 Coin World in "Varieties Notebook" where he says comprehensive books should be published for the variety hobby. He continues... "Im convinced the hobby would be better served if that occurred after the "best of" books were published of any series." He goes on to cite "best of" books of Washington Quarters and Morgan Dollar varieties.

Mr. Potter then goes on to plug the CONECA website which he says contains a "fully illustrated listing of the top 100 Lincoln RPM varieties." Then he says "It should be online and ready for viewing by the time you read this." If you go to the website today, June 10, 9 a.m., this is what you see:


http://conecaonline.org/content/Top1001cRPMs.htm


Four images. The four with images are devoid of any descriptive information. A note says more images will be added over the next few weeks. Lets see how long it really takes. In the meantime, collectors can use this list, come here and see many, many more photos and even complete descriptions of the Top 100.

So back to Mr. Potter's quote. What does this list have to do with a "best of" book in the same vein as the referenced "Top 100 VAM varieties" by Jeff Oxman and the "Washington Quarters Doubled Dies Varieties" by Michael Fey? How do they compare? I think Mr. Potter managed to plug and insult Mr. Fey and Mr. Oxman in the same breath.

The article seems to be a shamless plug for CONECA.

Update on July 27, 34 photos thru 1940-S, RPM-1

[smed]

Same bastard who panned the 1998-2000 proof-type reverse and then a month later was selling them for $35?

In my book he's a self-serving SOB who doesn't give a flying fig about the hobby.

[Bob P]

Garry,
I want to thank you for giving me an opportunity to get a good laugh in today. Otherwise it would have been a completely horrible day. I have always had a giggle in what Mr. Potter has had to say over the last few years. In addition, I found it difficult at best to get any information from him concerning the hobby. I think Smed hit it right on the head with his description of Mr. Potter's motives.
I look at this a different way. I see it as CONECA and others running scared now that coppercoins has and continues to make a name for itself. We have said from the beginning that once we really get going (with the book, and continually updating the site), that others will have no way to compete unless they can match the quality, comprehensiveness, and time put into making coppercoins what it is. Some folks over there seem to think we have nothing but time on our hands to do this, but nothing can be further from the truth. I do what I do in my few spare hours a week. I do it for the love of the hobby, not for financial gain or recognition. Chuck started all this because of the lack of information out there. He has single handedly put the fear into other self serving organizations. I see it as a way to take advantage of the internet, and so far, so good. If the other organizations continue to try and upgrade their info, even with only a sparse photo or two, then it is more info out there for the collector. Either way, I see folks who want good reliable information, always returning to coppercoins.
My last question for anyone is: Who determines what a CONECA Top 100 is? I see no rationale for some of their choices, and I see other more desireable varieties left off the list all together. If I have a CONECA Top 100, can I get 50% more for it? I don't understand the need for the top 100, but maybe I am wrong. I've been wrong twice this year already

[GarryN]

Thank you, Bob for your comments. Bob, Smed, feel free to use my comments and some of your own and write a rebuttal for the Coin World editorial page.

[joeyuk]

I did not read the story but I can't believe this site or Chucks book were not mentioned. I constantly refer back to this site when looking for coins because people selling on e-bay and other venues do not show detailed photo's of listed varieties for sale. Often the coin is not even attributed and here you can search for all varieties for a given year and mintmark.
This site is fantastic and to leave it out is only self serving.
Joe

[coppercoins]

I have to say that not only do I agree with your sentiments, but I appreciate them too. Not often is it that someone is willing to put in a lot of time and work to make something like this site without a lot of profit involved, and everyone here has done some part in making it what it is. Granted we have a long way to go, but what it has become over the years has indeed set the standard, in my opinion.

Oddly enough, or perhaps not so odd is the fact that none of the "recognized experts" in the field have ever given me the time of day other than Gary Wagnon and Billy Crawford, two other "outlaws" who don't follow the "club" mantra.

One of these days the rest of the world will open their eyes, and all of you who came into this early will benefit in one way or another - I'll see to that.

[jtwax]

I don't see die listings as a competition at all. Do you not feel that each and every member of these "clubs", this one included, has not done something on thier part to donate to our hobby? Granted, some charge money, some do not; some have photos, some have more photos than others, and some don't have any. So long as information is accurate and correct is it not a contribution to this hobby?

How about those "Top-100" lists? To me, its just another means of collecting. I created the "Top-100" Jefferson nickel varieties list for CONECA with input from James Wiles. And because I am a member of CONECA it took the CONECA name. Would you balk if it said "Jason Taylor's Top-100 Jefferson Nickel Varieties"? There was careful thought and consideration put into the list and it took us over two months to make all the decisions. A collector has an opportunity to use the list to collect RPM/DD combinations, FS listings, and other various combinations. Who determines the "Top-100"? Well, who determines how many points a 1909-S MS68 RD cent gets in the PCGS registry? Aren't the registry sets just another means of collecting?

I have created a web site with die varieties pictured as fast as I can take them, time permitting, FREE of charge. I am also a board member of CONECA, so where does that leave me?

I guess I felt a little insulted from this whole thread. We all know that Chucks site kicks ass and his book is nice but it's really not a competition. We all do what we can do, when we can do it, for the love of the hobby. Why bash each other? Now if we had someone out there printing/publishing false and misleading information it would be a whole new ballgame but that's another thread...

Respectfully,

[Bob P]

Hi Jason,
You make many valid points in your post.
First things first though. I am sorry you felt insulted by the thread. Most of the comments were made by folks pretty much fed up with some of the antics going on out there...especially with CONECA. That's not to say that everyone in CONECA is bad, or that CONECA itself is bad. As a prior member of CONECA, they were the first club to give me a glimpse of the variety hobby, and it has grown from there. I beleive all the heartache stems from the lack of detailed information without having to pay a price for it. I have heard all the pros and cons of this, and I choose not to take it any further than that. What I choose to do though, is seek out the most comprehensive information I can get. As a collector, there is nothing worse than thinking you have something only to have it dismissed as something else or nothing at all. That's bad enough...but losing 3-5 bucks to boot make it sting a little bit more.
As you said...Chuck's site kicks ass, and his book is but the beginning of what may prove to be the proving grounds for much more. The love of the hobby is what makes him do that as I am sure that is what drives you as well.
I know about your site, and pictures. They are very well done. But not everyone does what you do.
As a board member of CONECA...be honest with me and tell me what a collector can gain from the CONECA varieties web site. The descriptions are vague, marker information is minimal, and there are no photos. If I am new to the hobby, how can this help me out?
You obviously saw the need to do better...hence your site on the nickel varieties. That information is free of charge, as is coppercoins. Both sites could probably charge a membership fee and still would have many subscribers.
SO....Your point is well taken. We don't need to bash each other. We do need to extend our knowledge...especially for our young numismatics.
I take full responsibility for the Top 100 question. You answered that question for me, and I thank you for that. I also take responsibility for what I said about Mr. Potter, and that is because I went through some difficult times trying to get information from him. As a recognized expert in the field, I searched him out for answers to certain questions, only to be cast aside like I wasn't even there...either by a lack of a response all together, or by getting a 'form letter' type response like he was talking to a 2 year old. Although that may seem trivial to some...it insulted me pretty much like this thread insulted you. I am sure he didn't mean it, but if the recognized expert doesn't have time for you, and he is associated with a certain group...it kinda leads toward bad feelings to that group.
Like I said Jason...it is not YOU or CONECA directly. I apologize once again if this thread insulted you. I am but one of the people to make a statement here. The others seem to have found a common ground and made their statements. I will let them answer to them if they feel a need to.

[coppercoins]

As for me and the whole subject behind this thread...

I started this site and developed it alone through the first year and a half only as a means of trying to get all the known varieties in one list...all of the Wexler and CONECA numbers in one easy to use reference. Both sent notes telling me that I was not right in doing that because I could not verify that my information was correct. Mr. Wexler said he would help as long as none of it cost him a dime and as long as we could exchange information through the mail, because he did not use a scanner or email to transfer information. Mr. Wiles told me that the listing system I was using had been tossed out and started anew, and all of the information I was publishing was wrong and needed to be taken down. When I asked for his assistance in completing the task, his response was that his attribution fee was $2.50 per coin plus shipping and that I was welcome to send any number of coins to him for verification. Gee, thanks.

I have always been cash poor, in fact dead broke most of the time. I don't have thousands of dollars to have anyone look through my coins and attach die numbers to them. I do have the ability and time to compare spreads and markers and list coins in a die system myself (since nobody else seems to want to share theirs). So that's what I did.

In April, 2001 the system used here was developed between myself and Bob Frye. That system has been used since that time without the feeling that I had to check with any authorities as to its correctness or accuracy. Relief was an understatement. I finally had the ability to list all the different unnamed dies in my collection without having to try playing to the beat of someone else's drum. I couldn't afford the time, effort, and most importantly money to work with any of the "authorities" so I became one myself.

Let's face it...anyone with two brain cells to rub together can attribute die varieties if given enough information, and that's EXACTLY what the clubs have ALWAYS failed to do, whether it be out of oversight or on purpose...doesn't really matter to me, no matter what you try, without paying the price of admission you get nothing from them. Period.

Here we have the opportunity to learn and share information, share photos, and live our existence being able to help one another collect coins without having to pay over and over again to identify every obscure variety that crosses our view. I think that's a pretty damn worthwhile effort, and no matter how much notariety I receive for what I've done, I'm still just a lowly collector just like everyone else here looking for order in my collection. I hate having rolls and rolls of unpublished die varieties, and the omnipresent voice in my ear that I could have them secretly identified for a price. SCREW THAT!!

Jason, I like you and think you're a great guy. I have talked with you and worked with you in the past, and I think your heart is in the right place...but dammit, the clubs don't have their shit together, point blank. They charge for every table scrap they hand out, and don't end up publishing the information people pay them to publish. It ends up in some file that remains a secret to everyone except those who pay the admission fee, and that's simply not right. The sooner you see that the sooner you can make it with nickels right beside this effort in cents. You could be publishing on your own, you could be well known for your knowledge. Believe me...I'm a little talented with artistic ability and I work to produce something I want to see - because I know that's what others want to see....but when you get right down to it, I'm just like you - a lowly collector wanting to help others.

If James Wiles, John Wexler, or Ken Potter want to put out the effort to publish a "complete" attribution guide to die varieties, I'm listening. I'd be interested in hearing them out, and I'd be interested in helping them if they are willing to listen to someone who knows how to do it right. I can tell you, though, that you'd be awful blue in the face holding your breath waiting for that to happen. It simply won't. What the reason for that is, I wouldn't know. I'm doing it and I don't make a million. In fact, my bank account is in negative numbers as we speak. What it takes is a love for the hobby that is unequalled by anyone who is out there to make a buck. I'm not in this for the buck, and I'm not in this for recognition. I'm doing it so others can collect without a noose around their neck.

Jason, when you're ready to work on your own without the governing body of a self serving club, let me know. I have done a lot of work to set up what you can take advantage of, and be your own author - not someone's helper. My terms of repayment are your sweat...not your money. You have to work to make it happen. You do it because you love it, not because you want money.

[rollmeupabe]

Wow. A lot of passion in this thread. I am a novice collector who just rediscovered the fun of collecting and now searching for varieties. I can wholeheartedly confirm the thoughts expressed here. coppercoins.com is the most useful site I have found and the people who support it are fantastic. I will say Chuck I have been amazed at the amount of time you spend responding to questions from novices like me. I would not fault others for not giving that same time and effort. I instead look at it as a positive reflection on you. I do think you could, and should, get some gain from all your hard work so I was very happy to hear the good news that came out of your trip to Pittsburgh.

[rollmeupabe]

I forgot to mention that I used to visit another web site (collectors.com?) but got turned off after awhile because many of the threads had a very negative condescending tone. This one stood out as being focused on the hobby and being extremely helpful and encouraging which gives me more motivation to want to collect.

[smed]

If I upset anyone with my previous post to this thread, I am sorry, but I do not apologize. There was an article in CW just after the variety started getting a lot of notoriety(SP??), and, if I remember correctly, he was quoted as saying there was nothing to get excited about and that it wasn't anything worth collecting. Two months later he's selling them for $35 a pop on his website. That's where my apathy comes from.

[coppercoins]

Smed - You have no reason to be sorry...truth hurts when you're on the short end of it, but they made their beds. Being exposed to the criticism of all by making a public name for one's self sets them up to be had if they start playing selfish games. All I can say is that I have the capability of learning from the mistakes of others.

Funny thing, I am in negotiation with a publisher to do the second edition of my book. He said over half of the coin "guides" out there are self-serving advertisements containing page after page of what they want you to hear, not the straight truth. He said that a lot of people buy these books and become followers of the words written by the author and end up one of their loyal customers. He says it's sick. This all came up because my coppercoins logo is on the front cover of the book and he said it would be a good idea to remove that - not because this is a dealer site, but because of the perception that it could be a dealer site. I never saw it that way. Publishing can really be a smelling salt.

[GarryN]

My only motivation for starting this thread was to point out that Mr. Potter had touted the CONECA Top 100 as a "best of" list in the same vein as Jeff Oxman's Top 100 VAM Varieties and Michael Fey's Washington Quarters Doubled Die Varieties. Lets face it, more work was done on those books than on the so-called "Top 100 RPMs".

By the way there is a link to the Top 100 RPMs in the original thread and as of September 1, all 100 photos are in the site. Between July 27 and September 1, 66 photos were added.

We can't assume that Chuck is not in competition with others in this field. This is career for alot of people and competition enters into it as it does in any other field of endeavor. What Chuck has discovered in Pittsburgh is that hard work and perseverance will get you noticed. Doing a job right the first time is the only way to do it. You don't need alot of free publicity in the trade papers to find a niche in your specialty. That is a lesson for all of us and especially our kids.