1909-S real S?

eagames · Expert Member

Looking at a 1909-s that someone wanted a grade guess on and to me I didn't trust the MM. (it's not a VDB)

In hand looking at all angles it doesn't look added, it merges with the field very cleanly but the style looks wrong.

The serifs aren't parallel as they are on S-VDBs and the lower serif seems too big. After looking real close I can't say it was added, it looks like it's minted with it but the style looks wrong to me like the coin was a struck fake but it doesn't have any of the known diags for struck fakes that I could find. (but the info is about S-VDBs)

I gave my opinion that the S looks wrong based on what I know of S-VDBs but I'm not sure if normal S mintmarks (non VDB) always look the same as S-VDB mintmarks. I thought all 1909-S and S-VDB and 1910-S used the same punch. My thought is that it might be a struck fake or very well added S. I wanted to see what others thought.

Teryble · Veteran Member

For what it is worth, it doesn't look like it fits in. What do they make fake MM with and how is it attached? If it were glued, maybe soak it in acetone?

coop · Expert Member

Ed: Do you have Chuck's book? Check out page # 46. This one shows the real mint mark. In my opinion it's a fake. Also check out the two different VDB styles. The one with the wider dot is the D is the correct one for the 1909-S VDB. If you had a normal VDB plain the VDB would have the closer dot on the D. If you had the closer dot and the S on the obverse, then it would have been added on. But I'm agreeing with you it is a fake.

GarryN · Expert Member

i have the book, i agree, nothing like the original, coop. Maybe a quick pass thru acetone is a good idea.

I have the S VDB but not the '09-S. I wonder how many MM positions there are on the '09-S? the S VDB has four I've heard.

eagames · Expert Member

Thanks Coop and Tery!

Update:

I loaned him my copy of the PCGS counterfiet detection guide (also shows the MM style) and Chucks book and a 10-S as an example to show the dealer the correct 09-10 S MM style. He showed it to the dealer he got the coin from and the dealer agreed it didn't look right and took it back.

I'm glad it worked out, if he waited longer it might not have worked out so well.

I know the dealer and he's a good guy, I'm assuming he didn't look close enough when he got it.

Tery,

I've heard rumor that in the 60s-70s some outfit sold etched copper sheets with S mintmarks to be added on. Maybe that's why they often are the same wrong style LOL.

GarryN · Expert Member

i hope the dealer gets his money back

Dick · Expert Member

Sure glad that worked out. i checked the only two '9-S, on the site, and they both are s/s, which rules out this coin.,. It looks like there was something going on on the center part, like an upper, or lower section had been "added. It definitely didn't look like aterumpet-tail "S". maybe that is not the kind I think.
11/21. I can't open the reply to post in the IHC thread, so I'll add it here as an edit: The area just to the SW of the "of "A", show a series of "ripples, as thouth the "of &A" were shoooting ui into the sky.
Dick

CoinboyJay · Member

I just got this "supposed" 1909SVDB back from ANACS as " not genuine, added mint mark" .
I was suspicious because the shape/style and placement of the mint mark didn't look right. Plus I have seen many plain (P mint) VDB coins with this "woodgrain planchet" but never an "S" mint VDB.
Shane Anderson's Complete Lincoln Cent Encylopedia has a great section on the MM position and die markers for a genuine 1909SVDB Lincoln Cent.
Anyways....FYI.

Cheers,

JAY

eagames · Expert Member

Looks similar to the one I posted but yours is rotated differently.

Both of them have a bottom serif that's not paralel with the top serif. The main sections of the S are wider than real ones.

Dick · Expert Member

Didn't the '09-S have a "wirey"look to it? Seems like that is what drew my attention. This "S" has had a 'better diet", than the rest of the devices. LOL
Dick

eagames · Expert Member

Dick,

Exactly, the real ones have the much thinner S.

This one is similar in grade (AU-55) and finish to the one Jay posted but it's real. Notice how much thinner the S is than the fakes. Compare the center area of the S to the date, it's thinner but the fakes are nearly as wide as the date font. This one must have a bugger in the slab that made it hard to see the lower serif but it's end is paralel with the top serif |S| not jumping out at an angle.

coop · Expert Member

Ed: Yours also has the right placement of the dot in the V. D . B. I bet the other examples of the fake S has the V. D. B. dots in that order. That would be interesting to see on the fake ones. (The difference is a space between the D. D .)

eagames · Expert Member

Coop,

People can use the dot placement as you described to catch 1909-p VDBs with added S.

This pic shows it:

supaplums · Member

My S VDB has the woodgrained appearance. I was told that this was very common in the 08 and 09 cents. I think it mentions that in the PCGS counterfeit detection book also. Mine is ANACS authenticated so that eases my mind a bit.

eagames · Expert Member

I've seen some woodgrain 1909 cents, if ANACs authenticated it that's pretty safe to think it's ok.