Australia 1922 threepence with rev. mark--in detail

KurtS · Senior Member

Here's an interesting 1922 threepence with a raised mark on the reverse. Last time I posted pics, some thought the mark could be due to a die chip, file, or some other damage. Confused

Today, I noticed something interesting about the raised mark. The main mark (dark arrows) crosses the shield in several places higher than the normal design. This means the mark was recessed into the inverse shield design on the die. However, at the periphery of this mark are areas depressed below the coin's design (white arrows). If struck this way, it suggests that around this depression in the die, there were areas raised above the normal design--does that make sense? Confused

So I wonder what circumstances best explain both the raised mark and the depressions struck into the coin? Here are 3 possible scenarios I considered:

• If the mark is a die chip, that would not leave a raised area on the die (white arrows)--would it?
• Deep file marks I've seen usually remove metal, creating a sharp transition between the raised mark and the normal design. The depressions seen look larger than file burrs.
• If an object were struck into a die, I would expect displaced metal around the object that pushes upward, resulting in a recessed area struck into the coin.

Of these three options, I think a hard object striking the die best explains all the details on the coin. If that's a plausible scenario, then I wonder if the marks is damage to a hardened die while on press, or mis-punched into a soft steel die before it's hardened for use? Thoughts?

Yes--I'm probably thinking too hard about this coin, but it's one of my more intriguing finds for Australia coins. Laughing

Thanks for reading!

eagames · Expert Member

Interesting.

It sure looks bold and straight.
My guess is....

Maybe too bold for a file mark.
It might be damage from something straight.

Smile

Dick · Expert Member

Hard to say for sure, but, this might have happened:
something got into the chamber, when thet were making the working hub, and became a struck thru. The hub, in turn passed everything to the working die, and the result, is what you see. I was off-shift that day, so.....
Dick

KurtS · Senior Member

Yep, whatever the cause--it's sure intriguing. Very Happy

I'm also wondering if something was pushed into the die while being made, or just some blunder? A good coin to file away for future reference, in the event I find another.

GarryN · Expert Member

Do you think this is the same effect as this variety of the 1878-CC dollar?

http://www.vamworld.com/1878-CC+VAM-11

Here are a bunch more. Check this out.

http://www.vamworld.com/Die+Gouge

We are discussing die gouges on the Carson City Coin Collectors club forum today.

KurtS · Senior Member

Those are some impressive gouges--and cool how these are catalogued for VAMs. With Australian coins, I haven't been able to find any reference on gouges like this. Their main focus is die cracks, and a few dramatic doubled dies, and die clashes.

Dick · Expert Member

Kurt, I was not aware that the "Aussies" were interested in that area. The Canadians, too cover the cracks, as well ae MD's. I'll have to start looking for the Ausies", again. I have very few of them. Include the Canadian Provinces on the future searches, after all that was who Canada was, beforre. Not intending to "slight" them, but it happened. Sorry, folks.
Dick

KurtS · Senior Member

Dick,
If you're interested--I have a pdf book on Aussie varieties, which mostly involve die cracks. As much as I like Aussie coins, I don't get the interest in normal die wear. Actual die varieties such as doubled-dies are much more interesting--but seldom documented. Confused

Dick · Expert Member

Kurt, thanks. I'll keep that in mind, but no action for the present. I don't have but one 4-bit piece from "down under", so the future search will have to wait. LOL The provinces will see more attention, in the near future.
FYI, I just completed my first successful "overlay", and need to get ythem out of Photoshop. I asked Coop, (he was looking over my shoulder), but I don't see him on line. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Dick

KurtS · Senior Member

Dick,
Are you asking about converting a photoshop file to a format viewable online? In Photoshop, I would go: file > save as > choose "file format" as jpeg > select a compression setting > upload to the site. Very Happy

Dick · Expert Member

AHA! That is what is stalling the operation! be back in a minute....the window was too large to see the bottom, so I moved it, and found the formatting info. now to PS, and we shall see....

No luck. I can't retrieve the images. i'll try something else...

No lucj there, either...Any ideas?

coop · Expert Member

Looks like a die gouge to me. It is varying in depth, making the gouge behind certain devices and deeper making the mark look taller but is really deeper in to the die. Must have been something dropped with a little force at an angle. Maybe a tool used in cleaning?

Dick · Expert Member

I got the rigjht format for uploading, so everytthing is "copasetic", again. Ialso found where the photos are hiding. They have been put out to graze. It is nice when things happen the way I want them ti do.
Dick