Weak D or No D?

Scooby Due · Member

I need you big guns to chime in on such a sensitive coin as this.

A friend of mine has this coin for sale and he is absolutely convinced it is a No D. He has thrown around a couple of big names in the coin industry that he has shown it to and says they told him it was a No D and die pair 3.

I keep telling him I'm not disputing that it's die pair 3, because of the rotated reverse, but I think I see a weak D. He says it is the way the coin has toned. Maybe he's right and the "D" that I "think" I see isn't even in the right place. Your thoughts?

The pic of the reverse is not the rotation, just a better pic than was in the flips. The rotation can be seen in the flip pics.

If it is a No D, he is offering it at a good price, but if it's not, well....

GarryN · Expert Member

We need a closer photo of the mint mark area and motto. If it is the No-D, it would be Die Pair 2. There are some diagnostics to this coin that are spelled out in the following links. My initial reaction is that it is probably the Die Pair 2 just based on the condition of the motto on the obverse. However, I do not see any difference in strike in the last 2 digits in the date. See the ANACS link. But we need better photos. Or someone here can ID it for you.

http://www.anacs.com/contentPages/ShowArticle.aspx?ID=40&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

http://www.lincolncentresource.com/1922Ddievarieties.html

Scooby Due · Member

This is the only other picture that I have. What about the rotated reverse?

GarryN · Expert Member

The ANACS link says that the rotated reverse is a diagnostic of the Weak D. Also the mint mark area on your coin looks like it was messed with. Also, the second 2 in the date is not as clearly defined as I would expect it to be. So I am revising my opinion to Weak D. Not that my opinion holds any weight. Rolling Eyes

coppercoins · Site Admin

I'm not sure - I've never done any in-depth research on these.

GarryN · Expert Member

I believe you ! Wink

Dick · Expert Member

This IS a weak "D". Both views show the "shadow" od the MM It is a bit below the "9", and a bit to the left of the "2". If the view of the "fore, and aft" is proper, then it is the weak "D".
As far as the MM having been "messed with", it is unlikely, based on the rotated rev. "Garage mints can do many things, but rotating a rev? I don't think so. Wink

GarryN · Expert Member

I was trying to say that the Weak D mintmark appears to have been altered to make it look like it is not there. I wasnt referring to the rotation.

The rotation is on the Weak D, not the No-D.

Scooby Due · Member

You can have a No D with the rotated reverse, I'm just not convinced this is one of them. When in doubt - pass, right?

He offered to send it to me to inspect before buying - can't ask for anything better than that. But, I think I'll just tell him no thanks. If it were worth sending off to be verified, I'd do it. But, the risk of it coming back as a weak D just isn't worth it.

GarryN · Expert Member

I can't find a source that says Die Pair 2 ever exhibited a rotated reverse. I owned one and it did not have a rotated reverse. You should only buy a coin like that if it has been certified. Particularly this one, considering it's condition. The seller should take the responsibility of having the coin authenticated. Thats the ideal Rolling Eyes

Scooby Due · Member

That's why I think it is die pair #3.

eagames · Expert Member

It has enough of something showing that I wouldn't call it a NO D. I think the rule for the NO D that was used for a long time was "no trace of a D at 10X"
The die-3 often but not always has a rotated reverse but rotated reverses are not un-common on other dies of that date.

This might be a die-3 weak reverse with a weak D.
Die-3 can be a weak D or a no D depending on what shows at 10X. Or it might be a worn coin that happens to have a rotated reverse from a different die. It also has some scratches below the date that bug me. On these in lower grades if you see anything strange or damage then there's no way to tell if it had a weak D so I doubt graders would call it a NO D.
I think you're wise to pass on it. Smile

Scooby Due · Member

Thank you for all of your replies. I am going to pass on it. There's just too much in question to take a chance on it.

coop · Expert Member

Its good to pass on unknown items. Just because someone thinks his coin is ?? don't really make it so. When you can see with your own eyes what the coin actually is (providing its not a fake) is the time to jump on it.